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Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)
WhyIAmCatholic.bloogspot.com ^ | November 2010 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 11/21/2010 5:37:58 PM PST by Salvation

For Purgatory, Thank Heavens

—Feast of All Souls
When I was straddling the fence on whether or not I should become a Catholic, I never had a problem with Purgatory. It just makes the most sense to me.

I'll admit that I thought I would have a big problem with it at first. Because, you see, it isn't mentioned specifically in the Bible (along with about a million other details). But where did all the people who died go, for example from the Old Testament times? Assuming that all the people who had died before the Incarnation were just, ahem—out of luck, is ridiculous to me. And that was before I knew the doctrine of purgatory very well.

I just ran a quick search over at the handy-dandy YIMCatholic Bookshelf of the word "purgatory" and came back with references to 175 different books. You'll find everything from St. Catherine of Genoa's Treatise on Purgatory (only 67 pages, so give it a look) to the Manual of the Purgatorian Society.

Below are some thoughts I want to share with you from an American named John L. Stoddard. Back in 1922, Stoddard wrote Rebuilding A Lost Faith, By An American Agnostic. It's 246 pages of top-notch conversion story.  But I'm only going to share Stoddard's thoughts on Purgatory with you because in many ways, they mirror my own path to understanding this doctrine. Like Stoddard, the crux of the matter for me hinges on authority. Either you believe that, heads, the Church has the authority to teach this doctrine or, tails (like Martin Luther), you don't. Guess which side of this coin I side with?

I'll let Stoddard take it from here,

From Chapter XV, Purgatory and Indulgences

THE difficulty in regard to Papal Infallibility (See chapter XIV) having been overcome, I turned to consider the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the Sacrament of Penance. My feelings in respect to this will best be shown by the following extract from a letter which I wrote about this time to a Catholic friend.

"My Dear Francis:

"I find no special difficulty in the Catholic dogma of Purgatory. On the contrary, the idea of a state of purification, appointed Jor those souls who, though redeemed by Christ, are nevertheless still unprepared to pass at once into God's presence, appears to me logical and even comforting. I think that every soul who feels his own unfitness for the Beatific Vision (and who does not feel this?) must wish for such a state of preparation, even though attended with a cleansing punishment. The lack of this idea in Protestantism leads, I think, to an objectionable feature in their system,—namely, the altogether improbable and presumptuous supposition that the soul of some monster of depravity can straightway enter the society of heaven, provided only that he says, at the last moment of his ill-spent life, that he repents and believes in Jesus as the Son of God. Christ's Divine insight into the soul of the penitent thief, who hung beside His cross on Calvary, could justify, of course, His promise to him of an immediate entrance into Paradise; but that was a solitary instance, upon which one can hardly build much hope.

The statement, often loosely made, that, since 'Jesus paid it all, all the debt I owe,' a hardened criminal is thereby rendered instantaneously fit for Heaven, is dangerously demoralising. The Bible assures us that 'there shall in no wise enter into the heavenly City of God anything that defileth, or that is defiled,' and the acquisition of a pure character is not the affair of a moment by means of a death-bed repentance. I never shall forget the description in a Chicago paper, many years ago, of the hanging of a negro, who, on the night before his execution, was said to have repented of a peculiarly atrocious crime, and 'knew that he was saved.' The report was heralded by the flaring headline 'Jerked to Jesus!'

This blasphemous alliteration probably did less harm, however, than the sensational story, which accompanied it, of the negro's 'edifying remarks' which preceded his death. The idea of such a wretch going at once to Heaven was revolting to a sense of justice and even of decency. No Catholic would have supposed such a translation probable, or, save for a miracle, possible. We know, of course, nothing of what the purgatorial state may be, through which the soul must pass, to reach the sphere to which God calls it; but that some place of purification must exist for those who pass into eternity with no sufficient spiritual preparation, appears to me just, necessary and consoling."

To this my friend replied as follows:—

I well remember the crudely blasphemous headline which you quote. It had a great success, and was accounted 'clever,' though I am sure its ribald, vulgar character shocked all in whom a consciousness of the dignity of life and of the majesty of death remained, even though they had no positive Christian faith. There is little, if any, analogy between the case of the wretched negro and that of the penitent thief, for the latter was redeemed by his humility and faith. He did not 'know that he was saved.' He confessed his guilt in a supreme moment, and admitted the justice of his punishment. Whether or not the grace given him by our Lord was the only one ever offered him, we are not told; but to this opportunity at least he did respond, and by a single aspiration expiated with his dying breath a life of crime.

That the consoling doctrine of Purgatory should appeal to you does not surprise me. There is hardly a religious system of antiquity in which some similar provision is not found. It was left for the 'Reformers' of the sixteenth century to reject this immemorial dogma of the Church. When they denied the sanctity of the Mass and many other sacramental features of Catholicism, the doctrine of Purgatory went with the rest. If the souls of the dead pass instantly into an eternally fixed state, beyond the efficacy of our intercessions, then all our requiems, prayers and similar practices are vain. But if, on the contrary, we believe in the Communion of Saints,—that is, in the intercommunion of the three-fold Church,—militant on earth, suffering in Purgatory, and triumphant in Heaven,—then we on earth can influence, and be influenced by, the souls who have crossed the border.

Few, indeed, quit this life in a state of purity and grace which warrants their immediate entrance into Heaven. Still fewer, let us hope, are those to whom the blessed refuge of Purgatory,— that half-way house of our dead,— is closed. I cannot conceive how Protestants can believe as they do on this point, nor is it astonishing that their rejection of Purgatory has been followed, in the case of many, by the elimination of a belief in Hell; for the latter doctrine, taken alone, is monstrous. In fact, all Catholic doctrines are interdependent; they stand or fall together. You cannot pick stones out of the arch, and expect it to stand, for it will not do so. Purgatory is one of the most humane and beautiful conceptions imaginable. How many mothers' aching hearts has it not soothed and comforted with hope for some dead, wayward son!


Soon after receiving this letter, I read the following words from Mallock:—"As to the doctrine of Purgatory, time goes on, and the view men take of it is changing. It is fast becoming recognised, that it is the only doctrine that can bring a belief in future rewards and punishments into anything like accordance with our notions of what is just and reasonable; and so far from its being a superfluous superstition, it will be seen to be just what is demanded at once by reason and morality." My attention was at this time also called to the fact that the idea of Purgatory is no longer confined exclusively to Roman Catholic Christians. At a recent General Convention of Episcopalians in America resolutions looking towards prayer for the dead were defeated by only a very small majority.

The doctrine of the Catholic Church in reference to Purgatory states that there is such a place, in which souls suffer for a time, before they can be admitted to the joys of Heaven, because they still need to be cleansed from certain venial sins, infirmities and faults, or still have to discharge the temporal punishment due to mortal sins, which is as yet uncancelled, though the lasting punishment of those sins has been forgiven and removed through Christ's atonement. Furthermore, the Church declares, that by our prayers and by the acceptable sacrifice of the Mass we may still help those souls, through the merits of Christ.

Beyond this statement the Church's formal doctrine does not go; but it is not an article of Catholic faith that there is in Purgatory any material fire. It is generally believed that souls in Purgatory suffer spiritual anguish from the fact that they then feel acutely, as they could not do on earth, the perfect happiness from which they are for a time excluded, while they must also understand the enormity of the sins which they committed against their Heavenly Father and their Savior.

The entire story is here.

*****

What follows now are a few thoughts from Saint, and Doctor of the Church, Alphonsus Liguori, on our duty to pray for the faithful departed souls in Purgatory. This is from the Introduction to the Manual of the Purgatorian Society. With a book title like that, it's got to be good!

The practice of recommending to God the souls in Purgatory, that He may mitigate the great pains which they suffer, and that He may soon bring them to His glory, is most pleasing to the Lord and most profitable to us. For these blessed souls are His eternal spouses, and most grateful are they to those who obtain their deliverance from prison, or even a mitigation of their torments. When, therefore, they arrive in Heaven, they will be sure to remember all who have prayed for them. It is a pious belief that God manifests to them our prayers in their behalf, that they may also pray for us.

It is true these blessed souls are not in a state to pray for themselves, because they are so to speak, criminals atoning for their faults. However, because they are very dear to God, they can pray for us, and obtain for us, the divine graces. St. Catherine of Bologna, when she wished to obtain any grace, had recourse to the souls in Purgatory, and her prayers were heard immediately. She declared that, by praying to those holy souls she obtained many favors which she had sought through the intercession of the saints without obtaining them. The graces which devout persons are said to have received through the holy souls are innumerable.

But, if we wish for the aid of their prayers, it is just, it is even a duty, to relieve them by our suffrages. I say it is even a duty; for Christian charity commands us to relieve our neighbors who stand in need of our assistance. But who among all our neighbors have so great need of our help as those holy prisoners? They are continually in that fire which torments more severely than any earthly fire. They are deprived of the sight of God, a torment far more excruciating than all other pains.

Let us reflect that among these suffering souls are parents, or brothers, or relatives and friends, who look to us for succor. Let us remember, moreover, that being in the condition of debtors for their sins, they cannot assist themselves. This thought should urge us forward to relieve them to the best of our ability. By assisting them we shall not only give great pleasure to God, but will acquire also great merit for ourselves.

And, in return for our suffrages, these blessed souls will not neglect to obtain for us many graces from God, but particularly the grace of eternal life. I hold for certain that a soul delivered from Purgatory by the suffrages of a Christian, when she enters paradise, will not fail to say to God: "Lord, do not suffer to be lost that person who has liberated me from the prison of Purgatory, and has brought me to the enjoyment of Thy glory sooner than I have deserved.


For all the answers on Purgatory (and on Indulgences) that you want to know, but are afraid to ask, click on the hotlinks you just passed over. You'll be glad you did.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: allsouls; catholic; catholiclist; purgatory
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To: Alex Murphy; Salvation; MacMattico; txzman; plain talk
Dear Alex,

The Church teaches that Christ's sacrifice was "super-sufficient" for salvation. Namely, we were saved by the sacrifice of the lamb.

Nothing more is needed or can be added to Christ's sacrifice which won us our salvation.

The concept of purgatory takes away nothing from Christ's sacrifice or His winning our salvation. Souls in purgatory are those for whom Christ gave of Himself. They are saved and WILL BE in heaven, no doubt about that.

The STATE of purgatory answers the question -- nearly all of us, no matter how holy, are still unworthy at the time of our death to be in the presence of (note, just about being the presence of , nothing to do with our salvation which was already won by Christ) God

These souls are purified in purgatory -- whatever that may be, The Church is silent.

If you, dear Alex, die tomorrow, Christ's sacrifice would be sufficient for your salvation, yet some "purification" like the purification that Temple priests did would be needed before going into the presence of God.

Now as to plain talk's very valid question -- Jesus saved the thief on the cross (just as He saved us). Was the thief an exceptionally holy man? Or did Jesus Our Lord and Our God also 'cleanse' the theif and bring him to the state of purity needed to be immediately in the presence of God? I like to think the latter, however in either case, purgatory i.e. the "purification" process did happen.

The problem is that purgatory gets thought of as a place, not as a process of cleansing. It is also a place of joy, not torment
61 posted on 11/22/2010 5:58:12 AM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: coincheck
So all the people who lived before Jesus went where?

And those alive today who never heard of Him go where?

62 posted on 11/22/2010 6:08:26 AM PST by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: smvoice
Great question!

Um, moving on ....

No, seriously, that's a great question. I say, not the Lord (and not the Church either, as far as I know) that it has to do with that old point of friction, the relationship between time and eternity. the way temporality is embraced and invaded by eternity, and that sort of thing.

In related news, from OUR side, there is an 'imperfection' similarly embraced and invaded by perfection, and that is hinted at in Col 1:24. In one and the most important sense, "Tetelestai!" -- it is finished, perfected wrapped up, finito, DONE! But, I think we would say, there is still the gift and duty of Hope, which suggests that within that completion there is still a dynamic, a coming to perfection.

In today's reading (for us smarmily pious Cat'licks, we read (2 Pet 1:10-11) "... be the more zealous to confirm you call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; ..."

Here's how I handle this, FWIW:

Me:Whaddya mean, "be zealous to confirm yatta yatta"? Are you saying it's not confirmed in Jesus:

Peter: Shaddup! Yes, you bozo, it's confirmed and perfected in Jesus. Do you think I'm telling you to step outside of Jesus' work? Get out of town! I'm telling you the current, right now, truth of that perfection is that you are called and enabled by grace working in you not to sit back and cruise but to live in the coming to be in you of what is already accomplished.

Okay, maybe that's not so clear. Haven't had enough coffee.
63 posted on 11/22/2010 6:10:35 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Secret Agent Man
By that reckoning the only important difference (that I can see, open to correction) is that we imagine an instant or a period of time after death when there is still some sanctification going on, while you say that it stops at death.

It is interesting in this connection to wonder about the usual Catholic teaching that "Purgatory" (which, at rock bottom is NOT held necessarily to be a place or duration) will end at the end of the world. I've never worked that out to my complete and detailed satisfaction.

64 posted on 11/22/2010 6:15:09 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: sigzero

Neither is the Trinity explicitly mentioned


65 posted on 11/22/2010 6:22:17 AM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: ottbmare
Hello! And Thank you for bringing your orthodoxy to The Church, you enrich Christ's Church with your presence and faith

1. How do we know? Well, we can guess, but there's no harm in keeping on praying -- prayer is always helpful. Maybe if person A is already purified, then the prayers will help person B? Who knows? (besides GOd of course!) -- one can never pray too much!

2. We don't know anything of the ways,methods,process of purgatory -- we'd say limbo or I don't know.
I do not believe that The Church says for certain that some go straight to heaven -- we can guess at this, but we don't know. It is not wise to be too legalistic (that's something the orthodox say we are -- and sometimes I think they are right!)
66 posted on 11/22/2010 6:45:02 AM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: Cronos; Salvation; Mad Dawg; Secret Agent Man; MacMattico; txzman; plain talk
If you, dear Alex, die tomorrow, Christ's sacrifice would be sufficient for your salvation, yet some "purification" like the purification that Temple priests did would be needed before going into the presence of God.

Allow me to parse that for better understanding. In Catholicism:

Did I get anything wrong?
67 posted on 11/22/2010 8:20:59 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy; Salvation; Mad Dawg; Secret Agent Man; MacMattico; txzman; plain talk
I'm sorry, but your parsing is completely wrong.

In Christianity

It's really quite simple -- take the simple analogy of Aaronic priests washing themselves before entering the presence of God. Did the washing mean that God did not welcome them in? Or was washing the "payment" to enter in? NEITHER. Washing was the way to be pure.

in the same way, the process or state of purgatory is the metaphorical washing away of our sins to be able to bear the holiness that is God.

Does God do this completely and utterly? Yes.

Can we do anything to pay for this? NO. God (Jesus Christ) already paid

Purgatory is NOT a final test -- those who are in the state or process of purgatory are already not going to hell, their "ticket" has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice which is super-sufficient for your salvation.
68 posted on 11/22/2010 8:37:57 AM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: Salvation

This passage from Scripture proves to me that salvation is not by faith alone but requires works, and, therefore, proves that there must be a Purgatory:

“And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” (1 John 2: 3–6).

If you read on to verse 11, it becomes plain that more is required of believers than simple belief. Actions must follow belief.

Now what happens to all those who believe but whose actions are lacking? They do believe, so they shouldn’t go to Hell; but they are seriously tainted by sin so they can’t go to Heaven. Nothing impure can enter Heaven. It stands to reason that a merciful Father allows a place of purification so one can become clean and worthy to enter into Heaven.

Purgatory is an affirmation of God’s love and mercy for his children.


69 posted on 11/22/2010 8:48:10 AM PST by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: Cronos; Salvation; Mad Dawg; Secret Agent Man; MacMattico; txzman; plain talk
I'm sorry, but your parsing is completely wrong....Purgatory is NOT a final test -- those who are in the state or process of purgatory are already not going to hell, their "ticket" has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice which is super-sufficient for your salvation.

Please re-read my previous post. I said nothing about a "final test". I said nothing about going to hell (odd that you didn't capitalize it, BTW). I said nothing about an individual not entering the Presence of God after spending time in/completing Purgatory.

It is clear, when one considers Catholic beliefs about indulgences, that Purgatory is not an equal experience for all Christians, and that one goal of Catholics is to reduce the time they will spend in Purgatory, through personal sacrifice and behavior. At the same time, however, Catholicism teaches that Christ's sacrifice does not completely replace/eliminate the requirement to spend some time in Purgatory. Heaven may not be far away, but it is a long trip.

To paraphrase the apostle's words, "to be apart from the body is to eventually be present with the Lord."

70 posted on 11/22/2010 9:29:14 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: sigzero
Neither is the Internet or the Dallas Cowboys.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

71 posted on 11/22/2010 9:43:35 AM PST by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: armydoc; Salvation
If you want to get all technical ...

Some teach that Baptism removes all the effects of sin, including "the temporal penalty of sin." That's why if you want to become Catholic, if you've been validly baptized you ordinarily have to go to confession before reception, confirmation, etc. But if you have not been baptized, no confession is required.

I would think of "Dismas" as receiving the Baptism of Desire (since the 'desire' for Christ is the point, not the desire for a sacrament of which one might never have heard.

I think it's the wrong emphasis to say a perfect act of contrition (which would be a phenomenon of grace, BTW) "serves as a Plenary Indulgence." It's like saying a football player's being levitated to the end zone, "served in place of a run." It's more like plenary indulgences (and running) are that to which we take recourse because levitation and perfect acts of contrition are not usually available.

This is not authoritative. This is Mad Dawg winging it.

72 posted on 11/22/2010 9:56:47 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Yes that is essentially correct. You believe the process of glorification requires a period of time after death (in purgatory). Protestants believe this happens instantaneously, just as Justification does.

And please know I never said sanctification “stops” at death. It is completed at death because Christ finishes it.


73 posted on 11/22/2010 10:16:07 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Miss Marple

Funny, why will I be unpleasantly surprised? I will be getting cleansed before going into heaven. My salvation is in Christ doing everything to save me - as yours is, not whether I believe in purgatory or not.


74 posted on 11/22/2010 10:18:25 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Alex Murphy
humma, humma ...

  1. "Salvation" does not mean "Presence of God"
  2. Christ's sacrifice only paid for Salvation. His shed blood is an insufficient payment for entering (directly) into the Presence of God.
  3. Before entering into the Presence of God, a "purification period" is required after death.
  4. There is no full and sufficient payment that can be made, by man or by another on his behalf, to accomplish instant purification.
  5. To achieve purification, an individual man must make his own "sufficient payment" via personal obedience, penance, and indulgence before death, or via time in Purgatory after death.

And

It is clear, when one considers Catholic beliefs about indulgences, that Purgatory is not an equal experience for all Christians, and that one goal of Catholics is to reduce the time they will spend in Purgatory, through personal sacrifice and behavior. At the same time, however, Catholicism teaches that Christ's sacrifice does not completely replace/eliminate the requirement to spend some time in Purgatory. Heaven may not be far away, but it is a long trip.

This is so hard to nail down. My complaint, not with you but with the usual analogy for Purgatory is that it goes too far with the "fine", "transactional", "debt," legal tort language. Also, the language of time and place is unhelpful (except in Dante, of course, where everything is helpful, if not downright marvelous.)

In any event, though I cannot recall where, I do recall reading some learned Catholic writing that it was not necessarily true that purgatory had a duration or a place. As far as I can tell, the "non-negotiable" is only that some (most?) of the saved will undergo "purification".

  1. I say that God is everywhere present, at least eschatologically. His intimate presence to those who reject him is torture.
  2. Purgatory is a mercy, a gift of grace, made accessible to us by the Sacrifice of Christ. The question, I think, is not about the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice but about HOW sanctification is perfected in sinners who have turned to Jesus.
  3. Yes. For some the purification seems to take place in a dramatic moment of conversion. For others the grace of God works in their lives "through many dangers, toils, and [possible even] snares". For others the process is completed in the purgation after death.

    Some become people of virtue at conversion. For most of us the development of the 'habit' (as 'the Philsopher' says) takes time.

  4. God can and does purify. I do not know if some saint's penances could entirely provide purgation for another. I say again "payment" is, IMHO, not a useful term. We're not talking about paying a debt any more than dieting is paying the debt of getting fat. (Not much less either, I would venture to say.)
  5. Same objection to payment.
I hope this is clear. Right is probably too much to hope for ... But you never know.
75 posted on 11/22/2010 10:26:39 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Salvation

Good post and thread bump!


76 posted on 11/22/2010 11:07:45 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Cronos

I like your explanation. I even learned. I also use to listen to Catholic answers radio. You sound like them. Thanks!


77 posted on 11/22/2010 11:42:27 AM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: Mad Dawg

“Yeah, but they have great food, and the Liturgy is to die for.”

Too true, too true!


78 posted on 11/22/2010 11:50:21 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Mad Dawg; boatbums

“I’d suggest that the interesting and fruitful part of the conversation is on the question of grace and freedom.”

And even more interesting, whether that grace is created or uncreated.


79 posted on 11/22/2010 11:52:09 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Secret Agent Man
You believe the process of glorification requires a period of time after death (in purgatory).

The period of time language is controversial among Catholics. It COULD be an instantaneous process.

How do you construe this:

[2 Cor 3:18] And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

80 posted on 11/22/2010 12:37:03 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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