The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}

New Advent ^ | 14-Aug-2010 | Newadvetn

[Cronos]

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.

[Iscool]

Behold, I am with you always: the promise of Jesus' real though invisible presence echoes the name Emmanuel given to him in the infancy narrative;

But Jesus is NOT with us always...Jesus is seated in Heaven alongside the Father...

However, the Holy Spirit is with us always...Jesus says we are filled with the Holy Spirit...And yet Jesus says we are in Him and He is in us...

One doesn't have to go too far down this road to realize that Jesus is speaking of the Trinity...

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to take His place since Jesus would be gone, but then Jesus says He is here with us...

We don't need to understand it...No one understands it...Just believe it...

[Mad Dawg]

In fact Jesus says at John 14:28 that his father is greater than he.

From the so-called Athanasian Creed:

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

I do not post this to say that it's right, but merely to say that Trinitarian theology thinks it has dal with the "The Father is greater than I," saying.

[count-your-change]

It’s not “just” John 17 or 10. Rather Jesus is always shown in the subordinate position to the Father as in John 5:19, “....the son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (RS)

[Salvation]

**But Jesus is NOT with us always...Jesus is seated in Heaven alongside the Father...**

So sorry that you do not give the qualities of God to be with every person at any time to Jesus.

Prayers for you.

You are denying that Christ is God when you say that aren’t you?

[count-your-change]

Yes, The Athanasian Creed. As the Catholic Encyclopedia describes it,

“One of the symbols of the Faith approved by the Church and given a place in her liturgy, is a short, clear exposition of the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, with a passing reference to several other dogmas.”

Sound like doublespeak. Both hot and cold, both square and round, up and down.

[Mad Dawg]

Sound like doublespeak. Both hot and cold, both square and round, up and down.

I can certainly understand getting that impression. I sometimes have a similar reaction to the Chalcedonian definition: One person, two natures -- fine, what does THAT mean?

Our side would say that the inadequacy is not that the dogma is wrong, but rather that the reality does not submit to the categories of mind . So what you end up -- as I see it -- is some formulas of expression which (we think) you hagve to maintain to be right about what's going on. If you overstress the inferiority, you fail to remain consisten with Thomas's exclamation, "My Lord and my God!" (or you imply more than one god, also a FAIL) If you do not mention the inferiority, you fail to account for the statement you quoted, and you miss the mystery of the Incarnation - Creator in creation, the greater in the less -- the inside bigger than the outside.

So -- again, as we see it -- you are stuck with, "in this way equal to, in that way less than. Now get me an aspirin, my head hurts." There is some hint of this in our everyday lives. It is my joy that my daughter is now a young woman. On the other hand, my grief was great when she left home to go ACT like a young woman. I really loved having her around. Joy and grief sometimes go hand in hand, and nobody accuses the proud and weeping parent of doublespeak.

[Tennessee Nana]

And not only that but Jesus also illustrated that the Holy Ghost is God, is part of the Trinity and connected to both God the Father and God the Son, the Word, Jesus, when He said,

But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13

So the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth...and yet Jesus is TRUTH...

Jesus said to us all, “I am the Way, the TRUTH John 14:6

so Jesus and the Holy Ghost are both TRUTH, are both equal parts of the Trinity...

He will not speak on His own...

He is not separate and operating separate away from God the Father and God the Son...The Holy Ghost is God...

He will speak only what He hears...

He speaks only what He has ever heard what He has ever known... He is God and speaks only what God has to say...The Holy Ghost is not separate from God the Father and God the Son...

He will tell you what is yet to come.

Call unto me and I will answer thee and show you great and mighty things... Jeremiah 33:3

The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit has always been here...

The Third Person of the Trinity...

[Cronos]

Now, the non-Trinitarians on this thread in post #7 gave examples from the scriptures explaining why they did not believe in the Trinity. You can answer them from scripture or outside. Thank you!
All this supposition contradicts a verse from Psalm 82 (verse 6) that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. For reinforcement of those verses, see Deuteronomy 14:1. There is also Romans 8:29, where Jesus is described as "the firstborn among many brethren". How many sons does the Father intend to bring to birth, then? The agent of change is cited as the Holy Spirit, which is a part of God (see John 4:24).

[Cronos]

Not correct. This is not part of Scripture. It's a later addition by someone other than John.

My mistake -- I forgot that that was the Comma Johanneum

[Cronos]

so then, who do you say Christ was? He was definitely not just a man, right?

[Alamo-Girl]

reality does not submit to the categories of mind

Precisely so, dear brother in Christ!

God cannot be put under a microscope, measured with a rod, observed through a telescope.

If a person's concept of God requires that He comply with his own sense of time, space, matter/energy, physical laws and the laws of logic - then he would have a very reduced concept of God, a small 'god' of his own imagination, a false god his mortal mind could comprehend.

That "god" could not be the Creator of "all that there is" because he would have to reside within the creation itself, he would be subordinate to the (multi)universe, not the Creator of it. He would be subject to entropy among other things. He would have a beginning and an end.

He couldn't be "the" God, he'd have to be "a" god.

He couldn't be "the" Creator, he'd have to be "a" creator.

The mortal vision and mind is limited to four dimensional perception - three of space and one of time. Our ability to perceive and reason is highly restricted and I suspect, intentionally so.

Nevertheless, God will hold all of us to account for noticing that He IS "the" Creator.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

Man is not the measure of God.

[count-your-change]

Of course “not just a man”. A perfect man as he had to be in order to serve as a ransom sacrifice, “what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom” is the way Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon describes antilutron or corresponding ransom. (1 Tim. 2:6)

Corresponding to what? What Adam lost for mankind, perfect life. Hence Christ is also called “the last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45) The first Adam was not part God, part human or God in human form nor was the last Adam, Christ.

So No, not just a man.

[count-your-change]

If more than a perfect human and mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 3:5) who do you say Christ was?

[betty boop]

If a person's concept of God requires that He comply with his own sense of time, space, matter/energy, physical laws and the laws of logic — then he would have a very reduced concept of God, a small 'god' of his own imagination, a false god his mortal mind could comprehend.

In short, this person would know nothing about God as He IS, I AM THAT AM. Human categories of logic and reason cannot even address I AM THAT AM in His unimaginable immensity, let alone taxonomically/linguistically classify Him in ways that can be studied by the scientific method.

It is so interesting that you suggest human cognition is limited to four dimensions, "intentionally so." That is a pregnant thought....

Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ for this, one-among-many-other splendid essay/posts that I read from you today!

[Mad Dawg]

The first Adam was not part God, part human or God in human form nor was the last Adam, Christ.We do not teach that the Christ was part God and part Man.

[Alamo-Girl]

In short, this person would know nothing about God as He IS, I AM THAT AM. Human categories of logic and reason cannot even address I AM THAT AM in His unimaginable immensity, let alone taxonomically/linguistically classify Him in ways that can be studied by the scientific method.

So very true!

Thank you so much for your insights, dearest sister in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

[Campion]

If a person's concept of God requires that He comply with his own sense of time, space, matter/energy, physical laws and the laws of logic - then he would have a very reduced concept of God, a small 'god' of his own imagination, a false god his mortal mind could comprehend.

An excellent insight. Any view of God which is perfectly comprehensible and non-mysterious to the human mind, is almost by that very fact wrong or at least gravely incomplete. It almost always ends up with an understanding of God that makes him little more than an idealized, perfected human being; a "superman" of sorts.

God is infinitely more than any being like that could even pretend to be.

[Campion]

Why would anyone lo0ok in a secular book for info on God ???

"Theology and Sanity" isn't a "secular book". Frank Sheed, the author, was an orthodox Catholic layman who used to preach the Catholic faith in Hyde Park in London (I mean that literally, as in, he would stand on a box and preach to crowds that gathered), and in fact founded an organization, called the "Catholic Truth Society," to carry on that mission.

He would have gotten a big belly laugh out of the idea that his book was in any way in competition with the Bible, as opposed to merely an attempt to explain the Bible to curious skeptics and unbelievers.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ, but you said it a lot better than I.

[Cronos]

Ok, I'm going to play devil's advocate here:

That "god" could not be the Creator of "all that there is" because he would have to reside within the creation itself, he would be subordinate to the (multi)universe, not the Creator of it. He would be subject to entropy among other things. He would have a beginning and an end. --> Hindus and Gnostics believe(d) thare there is a separate Creator God and separate other gods. For example in Hinduism, the creator God is Brahma who resides within the creation itself, wakes up in his morning and sleeps in his day (one day of Brahma being equivalent to millions of years and yugas in human terms). Brahma is also subordinate to the universe and folks can visit him, ask for boons, Brahma can also be ousted by demonic-like Asuras and fight wars and have kids. At the end, Brahma too dies.

This ties in with Jainism, an off-shoot of Hinduism that does not believe in any creator god at all and says the universe always was and all the gods are just "higher" beings still subject to predestination/karma.

Yes, this is a "then he would have a very reduced concept of God, a small 'god' of his own imagination, a false god his mortal mind could comprehend.", but the Hindu does not perceive this and would ask why the question of a Trinity of one God,