The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}

New Advent ^ | 14-Aug-2010 | Newadvetn

[Cronos]

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome, dear sister in Christ!

[Cronos]

ok, but then what answer would you have to:
1. Jesus saying to baptise in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not in the nameS of .. or in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the....?

2. If there are three personages -- are these 3 separate gods or ...?

[Cronos]

All this supposition contradicts a verse from Psalm 82 (verse 6) that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. For reinforcement of those verses, see Deuteronomy 14:1. There is also Romans 8:29, where Jesus is described as "the firstborn among many brethren". How many sons does the Father intend to bring to birth, then? The agent of change is cited as the Holy Spirit, which is a part of God (see John 4:24).

Psalm 82:6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:34

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Deuteronomy 14:1

1 You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, 2 for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

Romans 8:29

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

John 4:24

24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Interesting set of excerpts. Let me read these again. Thank you for your viewpoint

[Cronos]

Thank you, however, as stated in the first post, this thread is for those of our fellow FR folk who either do not believe in the Trinity or are confused.

In other threads too often we say "ok, you don't even believe in the Trinity, why are you butting in", but here they can discuss with us in a civilised manner and we can explain our viewpoint and so can they.

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

But you made your thread “ecumenical”

????????????????????????????

[Legatus]

Everyone go dust off your copy of "Theology and Sanity".

You do have a copy of "Theology and Sanity" don't you?

Well, no worries, it's all over the internet. The first few paragraphs from Chapter six:

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THE notion is unfortunately widespread that the mystery of the Blessed Trinity is a mystery of mathematics, that is to say, of how one can equal three. The plain Christian accepts the doctrine of the Trinity; the "advanced" Christian rejects it; but too often what is being accepted by the one and rejected by the other is that one equals three.

The believer argues that God has said it, therefore it must be true; the rejecter argues that it cannot be true, therefore God has not said it. A learned non-Catholic divine, being asked if he believed in the Trinity, answered: "I must confess that the arithmetical aspect of the Deity does not greatly interest me"; and if the learned can think that there is some question of arithmetic involved, the ordinary man can hardly be expected to know any better.

Consider what happens when a believer in the doctrine is suddenly called upon to explain it - and note that unless he is forced to, he will not talk about it at all: there is no likelihood of his being so much in love with the principal doctrine of his Faith that he will WANT to tell people about it. Anyhow, here he is: he has been challenged, and must say something. The dialogue runs something like this:
BELIEVER: "Well, you see, there are three persons in one nature."
QUESTIONER: "Tell me more."
BELIEVER: "Well, there is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost."
QUESTIONER: "Ah, I see, three Gods."
BELIEVER (shocked): "Oh no. Only one God."
QUESTIONER: "But you said three:

you called the Father God. That makes 1;
and you called the Son God - 2;
and you called the Holy Ghost God - 3."

Here the dialogue form breaks down. From the believer's mouth there emerges what can only be called a soup of words, sentences that begin and do not end, words that change into something else halfway. This goes on for a longer or shorter time. But finally there comes something like: "Thus, you see, three is one and one is three." The questioner not unnaturally retorts that three is not one, nor one three. Then comes the believer's great moment. With his eyes fairly gleaming he cries: "Ah, that is the mystery. You have to have faith."

Now it is true that the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity is a mystery, and that we can know it only by faith. But what we have just been hearing is not the mystery of the Trinity, it is not the mystery of anything, it is wretched nonsense. It may be heroic faith to believe it, like the man who

Wished there were four of 'em
That he might believe more of 'em;

or it may be total intellectual unconcern? God has revealed certain things about Himself, we accept the fact that He has done so, but find in ourselves no particular inclination to follow it up. God has told us that He is three persons in one Divine nature, and we say "quite so," and proceed to think of other matters - last week's Retreat or next week's Confession or Lent or Lourdes or the Church's social teaching or foreign missions. All these are vital things, but compared with God Himself, they are as nothing: and the Trinity is God Himself. These other things must be thought about, but to think about them exclusively and about the Trinity not at all is plain folly. And not only folly, but a kind of insensitiveness, almost a callousness, to the love of God. For the doctrine of the Trinity is the inner, the innermost, life of God, His profoundest secret. He did not have to reveal it to us. We could have been saved without knowing that ultimate truth. In the strictest sense it is His business, not ours. He revealed it to us because He loves men and so wants not only to be served by them, but truly known by them. It is the surest mark of love to want to be known. The revelation of the Trinity was in one sense a more certain proof even than Calvary that God loves men. To accept it politely and think no more of it is an insensitiveness beyond comprehension in men who quite certainly love God: as many certainly do who could give no better statement of the doctrine than the believer in the model dialogue we have just been considering.

How did we reach this curious travesty of the supreme truth about God? The short statement of the doctrine is, as we have all heard all our lives, that there are three PERSONS in one NATURE. But if we attach no meaning to the word PERSON, and no meaning to the word NATURE, then both the nouns have dropped out of our definition, and we are left only with the numbers three and one, and get along as best we can with these. Let us agree that there may be more in the mind of the believer than he manages to get said: but the things that do get said give a pretty strong impression that his notion of the Trinity is simply a travesty. It does him no positive harm provided he does not look at it too closely; but it sheds no light in his own soul: and his statement of it, when he is driven to make a statement, might very well extinguish such flickering as there may be in others. The Catholic whose faith is wavering might well have it blown out altogether by such an explanation of the Trinity as some fellow Catholic of stronger faith might feel moved to give: and no one coming fresh to the study of God would be much encouraged.

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It may be a wall of text, but it's a great wall of text.

[Tennessee Nana]

Everyone go dust off your copy of “Theology and Sanity”.
__________________________________________________

Ans why wouldnt “Everyone (just) go dust off your copy of (The Bible)” ???

Why would anyone lo0ok in a secular book for info on God ???

From the Word of God, the Bible...

For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for pinging me to the challenge!

Just like time, space, matter/energy and physical laws are not restrictions on or properties of the Creator of them - the laws of logic are not restrictions on or properties of the Creator of them.

Man is not the measure of God.

We Christians are the adopted children of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. – Romans 8:15-17

We are His adopted children not as separate identities (Law of Logic: A=A and not B) - but because we are alive IN HIM.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. - I Cor 12:12-14

That the Spirit indwells each and every Christian does not mean that He breaks into as many parts as there are Christians. He is still One.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of the Seven Spirits of God it does not mean that the Spirit is broken into seven separate identities. He is still One.

And when Scriptures speaks of the Father and Son, it does not mean that God is broken into separate identities.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. - John 1:18

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. – Revelation 5:6

And again,

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God [El Shaddai]; walk before me, and be thou perfect. - Genesis 17:1

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:8

Man is not the measure of God.

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[count-your-change]

John 10:30 (I and the Father are one)is often cited as a support for the trinity doctrine but the question is, HOW are they one?

Jesus prayed at John 17:20-22 that his followers would one just as he and the Father were one, that they would be in union with him and he in union with the Father.
So How are we to understand John 10:30? As part of a trinitarian formula? No, rather that Jesus and his father acted and spoke as one, in unison of thought and purpose just as he prayed for his followers to be one.

In fact Jesus says at John 14:28 that his father is greater than he.

[Cronos]

:) yes, I hoped we could keep it civil unlike an open thread :)

No comments here on whatever "denomination" or "group", just simple debate on the Trinity will be a very welcome thread for all :)

[Cronos]

1 John 5:7

And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

Thank you TN --> that is a very precise statement from scripture.

CYC, Olog, webboy --> this excerpt from scripture does indicate a Trinity, correct?

[Cronos]

Good points -- reading through just John 17:20-22, John 10:30 is probably the basis of the thought that we are all of God or the basis of those who believe that there are no separate "persons" in th Godhead.

[Legatus]

Frank Sheed was, among other things, what we would call a street preacher. "Theology and Sanity" is a compilation of a lot of what he preached in Hyde Park, London during the first half of the 20th century.

Unfortunately people who deny the doctrine of the Trinity also "(just) go dust off your copy of (The Bible)" and arrive at different conclusions believing themselves led by the Holy Ghost. Therefore it is sometimes useful to expound on the Sacred Scriptures, Frank Sheed does a bang up job of doing exactly that.

I'm sorry you didn't gain any insight into what Sheed called "the inner, the innermost, life of God, His profoundest secret" from the excerpt I posted. His grasp on the subject is so much greater than mine, I can't imagine what it must be like to tower over him. Good for you, but it must be dreadful having to interact with people who think Sheed was profound. I think it must be something like the way I feel after 10 straight hours with my younger children: "OK, this was fun but my brain is melting down find me some grownups."

[Tennessee Nana]

Joey Smith thought he towered over not only you and the Bible but also Frank Sheed when it comes to knowing better than the Bible teaches about the attributes of God...

You might complain to the mormons...

[Tennessee Nana]

Apologies to Cronos

For me the Word of God, the Bible, is the final word on the Trinity...

or anything else about God...

No mere man can improve on the Word of God...

No matter how “revered” he is...

Not Frank Sheed ...

Not Joey Smith ...

Not Mohammad...

I have drawn the line in the sand...

[Legatus]

Well there ya go. I thought it might add something productive to the discussion. I had no idea it would be regarded as “fancy book learnin” or whatever. I apologize unreservedly.

[Salvation]

You’re so welcome. Enjoy!

[Salvation]

To me, these verses from the Gospel of Matthew signify and validify the Trinity in the Words of Jesus Christ himself!

Matthew
Chapter 28  

16

⁸ The eleven ⁹ disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.

17

¹⁰ When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.

18

¹¹ Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19

Go, therefore, ¹² and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. ¹³ And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

 

 

and the pertinent footnotes:

 

⁸ [16-20] This climactic scene has been called a "proleptic parousia," for it gives a foretaste of the final glorious coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 26:64). Then his triumph will be manifest to all; now it is revealed only to the disciples, who are commissioned to announce it to all nations and bring them to belief in Jesus and obedience to his commandments.

⁹ [16] The eleven: the number recalls the tragic defection of Judas Iscariot. To the mountain . . . ordered them: since the message to the disciples was simply that they were to go to Galilee (Matthew 28:10), some think that the mountain comes from a tradition of the message known to Matthew and alluded to here. For the significance of the mountain, see the note on Matthew 17:1.

¹⁰ [17] But they doubted: the Greek can also be translated, "but some doubted." The verb occurs elsewhere in the New Testament only in Matthew 14:31 where it is associated with Peter's being of "little faith." For the meaning of that designation, see the note on Matthew 6:30.

¹¹ [18] All power . . . me: the Greek word here translated power is the same as that found in the LXX translation of Daniel 7:13-14 where one "like a son of man" is given power and an everlasting kingdom by God. The risen Jesus here claims universal power, i.e., in heaven and on earth.

¹² [19] Therefore: since universal power belongs to the risen Jesus (Matthew 28:18), he gives the eleven a mission that is universal. They are to make disciples of all nations. While all nations is understood by some scholars as referring only to all Gentiles, it is probable that it included the Jews as well. Baptizing them: baptism is the means of entrance into the community of the risen one, the Church. In the name of the Father . . . holy Spirit: this is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of trinitarian belief. It may have been the baptismal formula of Matthew's church, but primarily it designates the effect of baptism, the union of the one baptized with the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.

¹³ [20] All that I have commanded you: the moral teaching found in this gospel, preeminently that of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). The commandments of Jesus are the standard of Christian conduct, not the Mosaic law as such, even though some of the Mosaic commandments have now been invested with the authority of Jesus. Behold, I am with you always: the promise of Jesus' real though invisible presence echoes the name Emmanuel given to him in the infancy narrative; see the note on Matthew 1:23. End of the age: see the notes on Matthew 13:39 and Matthew 24:3.

[Iscool]

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God created everything...Jesus created everything...

It was revealed by the God to the Apostles who revealed it to us hundreds of years before the Catholic church could figure it out, or accept it...

God never said to understand it...He would just like us to believe it...

So I don't understand it, but I believe it...I don't understand all that I know...

[count-your-change]

“CYC, Olog, webboy —> this excerpt from scripture does indicate a Trinity, correct?”

Not correct. This is not part of Scripture. It's a later addition by someone other than John.

“That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

(A) EXTERNAL EVIDENCE. (1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate.”

A TEXTUAL COMMENTARY ON THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT second ed. by Bruce M. Metzger page 647.

Metzger then list the eight manuscripts and further evidence that the passage is not part of John's writing.

How the passage might have entered the Latin Vulgate is unstated.