Posted on 07/25/2010 3:35:08 AM PDT by GonzoII
Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.
This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.
“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.
“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”
He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.
Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.
The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.
In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.
Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.
(Excerpt) Read more at therecord.com.au ...
James 5:16 (RSV)Positively satanic.
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
"Consequently, eating and drinking are to be understood of the actual partaking of Christ in person, hence literally. " http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
Catholc.com defines the Real Presence, stating,
"The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine." http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
In "The Blessed Virgin Mary in England: A Mary-Catechism" by Brother Anthony Josemaria Fti - 2008, it states (p. 266)
"we do literally drink Christ's Precious Blood in its Eucharistic mode of being, in Holy Communion."
Less authoritatively, arguing likewise, "Scripture Catholic states that "Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat." http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html
Of course, for Rome, "literal" does not mean literal as in the case of Him looking, tasting as His body, and thus the use of the philosophical term "accidents," though in His miracles, such as Jn. 2, i am sure the wine did not taste like water.
To late for this. My typos tell me my fingers are having to many literal "accidents."
Yes, of course. Praying alongside others is great. But Mary’s prayers are NO MORE EFFICACIOUS than anyone else’s.
Well,that is a great effort on your part and I respect and appreciate your posting,so full of faith and passion.
It makes me think of this prayer:
“Lamb of God,who takes away the sins of the world,have mercy on us.”
Because Jesus is the Lamb of God,the willing Lamb of God.
That’s but one problem with the RC church. False doctrines are introduced over the years, and these heresies need to be subsequently validated.
Scripture is clear: The Last Supper was Jesus’ way of communicating who He is in light of the Passover. His flesh and blood are not literally present. That’s just Middle Age stupidity.
Who kept the human race captives or slaves? Our Creator who endowed us with free will and inalienable rights?
Would you make your beloved son a hostage held for ransom?
No,not if you are a loving parent,and who can be more loving than our Creator God?
Jesus had free will and willingly choose to die in utter faith for us,to show us that we can be united with God forever,that our sinful human nature can be forgiven by our creator and that we can be one with God forever..
Would you mind enlarging on this Theo? I'm interested in that connection.
If the guy in the pew is living openly with his girlfriend, while in the process of divorcing his wife, will his prayers be more or less effective?
If a brother is openly holding a strong grudge and refusing to forgive someone else, will that impact the effectiveness of his prayers?
Now how about...(say) Billy Graham (were he still down here) or the Pope?
How much more then, one specially consecrated by God to be the chosen vessel to bear God's only Son, the "handmaiden of the Lord"...
You also might want to consider 1 Kings 2:17 as an example of "Queen Mother" and her influence on the King ("Queen of Heaven" *is* found in the old Testament, but you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you DARE suggest that the Virgin Mary is the same as a pagan goddess.)
And then take a peek at Mark 12:27; and (just to tweak your nose) 1 Cor 15:29 where Paul (you know, SAINT Paul) writes of folks being baptized for the dead, as an argument in favor of the resurrection of the dead.
In the mean time, you might also take a big dose of Romans 14.
Cheers!
Friend, trust in Jesus. Don’t trust in any other. Jesus, our Savior, above all. Above even your favorite denomination. Jesus. He ALONE is our Savior. And your Savior.
Have you ever heard of the Passover? If not, do some research. That’s what Jesus was celebrating when he performed “the Last Supper.”
God HIMSELF implies certain people's prayers ARE more efficacious than others.
See Jeremiah 15:1.
And yes, just to tweak your nose, it is in Jeremiah (Chapter 7 or so) where the "Queen of Heaven" is mentioned.
Didn't Jeremiah live long before Mary?
Cheers!
Are you saying that my friends, the ones I ask to pray with me, are atheists and adulterers? I can’t believe you’d be so crass as to say that my friends are godless and adulterers. Do you so love Rome that you find yourself slandering those who trust in Christ?
Do you really think Paul was advocating baptism for the dead? Seriously?
Tell you what: Cling to Rome. See if Rome saves you. As for me, I will look to Christ, my crucified Savior.
I hate Rome. I hate what it does to people. I hate how it turns people against other believers. I hate how it twists people to hate other Christ-followers. I hate Rome for how it divides the Bride of Christ, how it pollutes the beauty of Christ and His Bride.
You’ve used the phrase “to tweak your nose” twice with me. What does that mean? Are you trying to be cute in your rejection of Christ the Savior, who reigns far above Mary my equal before God?
I am familiar with the Passover Theo, and I know they were celebrating Passover then but I never pondered on this you presented...rather focused on Jesus’s breaking of Bread and the wine in remembrance of Him in relation to his crucifixion ahead.... and the happenings as they sat together. hummm.
So the bread and wine..basically changed the equation of the Passover Supper to that of Christ himself being the “Lamb”....and because of Him God would “Passover” us because He would see us thru His son...and His sacrifice.
I have to look into this further.
Are you trying to be cute in your rejection of Christ the Savior, who reigns far above Mary my equal before God?
Mary is created: but she is (on the testimony of an archangel's greeting to her) "Full of Grace" (God's unmerited favor).
Since she is full of God's unmerited favor, presumably her prayers are going to be assigned a higher place in line than Madeleine Murray O'Hare's, don't you think?
And maybe even that of some other Christians.
Did you get a chance to look up the Scriptures I listed?
Cheers!
I am “full of grace.” Thank God.
Are you saying that my friends, the ones I ask to pray with me, are atheists and adulterers? I can’t believe you’d be so crass as to say that my friends are godless and adulterers. Do you so love Rome that you find yourself slandering those who trust in Christ?
Do you remember the Lord's Prayer, about "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who trespass against US"?
IF we don't forgive, our prayers to be forgiven don't work.
Or you have Hebrews 11:6 -- whoever would please God must believe that He exists and rewards those who diligently seek him.
Therefore, atheists prayers (except, presumably, those of repentance or calls for mercy) probably don't make it to the top of the first-round draft pick list.
Similarly, those who live in open, unconfessed sin.
Etc. etc.
I was just pointing out that there DOES seem to be a pecking order, good works cannot earn you favor with God, but open defiant sin can sure keep it away.
Therefore, those whose attitude is most in tune with God ("If we ask anything according to His will, he hears us" (1 John 5:14-15) just might have their prayers answered first.
As far as the adulterers -- read 1 Corinthians where St. Paul chides them for having with them someone sleeping with his father's wife. That's adultery, right there in the church. Is God likely to honor that person's prayers?
So I'm establishing a rough hierarchy, the more devoted to God, the more the prayers are in God's will, hmm, a likely supposition is that their prayers are more efficacious.
Not guaranteed, btw, on the grounds of James 5:17 ("Elijah was a man of like passions with us...")
But you get the point, I hope. The most openly in rebellious probably don't get too many prayers answered in a hurry: those who obey God haphazardly, or inconsistently, might not either (James 1:8). Those who obey God, OK, cool. Those who ask according to God's will (meaning they're not praying for goodies for themselves, but for whatever God wants) seem to be higher up the list; and my verse from Jeremiah in an earlier post about Moses and Samuel, implies that there are some, specially close to God, whose prayers get FedExed right away, in a manner of speaking.
So no personal allusion meant at all. I'm still at a loss as to how you managed to read that in as the main point instead of a hypothetical illustration of a different point.
Do you really think Paul was advocating baptism for the dead? Seriously?
Paul himself used it as part of an argument in favor of the resurrection. So I can't on my own authority throw it out, you know. Paul's WAY ahead of me in line (I haven't been given a thorn in the flesh to buffet me to keep me from being puffed up from the visions I have seen in the third heaven, like he was. I'm just a lousy sinner and FReeper).
Tell you what: Cling to Rome. See if Rome saves you. As for me, I will look to Christ, my crucified Savior.
Rome points me to Jesus. And it is comforting to have a body of believers all over the world, and stretching into eternity, including saints, apostles, martyrs, prophets, and ordinary nobodies like me, all worshiping together and praying for one another.
And "crucified" saviour. Sure he was -- as it is written, "He was put to death for our transgressions" Romans 4:25.
But the verse goes on to say "and raised for our justification."
I like Easter, too, not just Good Friday.
As far as your lines,
"I hate Rome. I hate what it does to people. I hate how it turns people against other believers. I hate how it twists people to hate other Christ-followers. I hate Rome for how it divides the Bride of Christ, how it pollutes the beauty of Christ and His Bride."
You used the word HATE, and then said ROME twists people to hate other Christ followers.
Don't you think that sounds a little bit ironic, there?
Try Romans 14 and praying for all who name the name of Christ (even if in your mind they are in mortal error, that's all the more reason to pray for God's mercy on them.)
Cheers!
Poor attempt to justify your ad hominems.
It’s also an accurate labeling of the anti-Catholic. I don’t shy away from accurate labeling
Labeling and accusation of lying. Well, that's between you and God; and as it's written, by their fruits ye shall know them.
I have no reaosn to believe you or your story. I have known too many anti-Catholics to lie
Sounds like you've been shot down too many times to count, especially when your knee-jerk reaction is to call them ignorant and liars. This is getting very reminiscent of James 3:8.
Your supposed upbringing doesn’t guarantee knowledge of the faith. I have known far too many “raised in a Catholic country and taught by Catholic clergy and laymen in my youth” claimants who are in fact ignorant of the faith to assume they possess any detailed knowledge of the faith
There can only be one authority, not multiple ones. There's a reason why one of God's names is "One" (Zechariah 14:9). Jesus condemned tradition (Matthew 15:6, Mark 7:13). And yes, the whole thing about magisterial authority and tradition were questions that made me look in the scriptures, as well as the matter of the sabbath; there's a reason why the seventh day is given special prominence in the first chapter of Genesis, after all, and the Hebrew word translated "forever" (olam) really does mean "forever".
The Church has three sources of teaching authority: the Magisterium is one, the Bible and Tradition are the others. And you claim to have been taught the faith when you were young?
I didn't mention sola scriptura, but anything that is not of God is of men, and that cannot be ignored.
Sola scriptura is an unscriptural sham
Do I have to repeat the omitted text?
No, actually it disproved you. As I explained - and anti-Catholic people have a hard time accepting reality - there are three forms of the commandments in the CCC. No commandment was dropped. You were simply wrong
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."Now none of that text appears in what's quoted from the Catechism. And as for reality, that's exactly what appears in the Bible; Jesus said that not one jot nor tittle will pass from the law (Matthew 5:18, from iota and keraia respectively, referring to the Hebrew letter yod and the serifs of those letters).
Ex. 20:4-6, ESV
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.There is but one place that the Greek word ioudaizo (or "judaizo") appears in the Greek text (Galatians 2:14), and that refers to Jewish tradition that is outside of scripture (which Jesus condemned in Matthew 15:6 and Mark 7:13, once more); this is why Paul mentioned that the apostles were "not walk(ing) uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (and gospel comes from the Hebrew word basorah in Isaiah 61:1, translated into Greek evangelizesthai, a tense of evangelion or "gospel", in Luke 4:12).
Notwithstanding, the Bible does indeed call them "ten commandments" and tells us to not omit a single word, which means that you should include the phrase "who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage" in the first commandment.
Where in scripture does it tell you, “And this is the Fourth Commandment...” It never happens that way in scripture. Never. We are never told any numbering system at all. Ever
Neither of those verses mention worship or resting from labor. The apostles preached on all days of the week, but went into the temple and synagogues especially on the seventh day, just as Jesus did. As for the "collection for the saints", refer to Romans 15:25-28, which explains what that was about (and if you think that I'm trying to be deceptive, note Isaiah 28:10, and even more so the timeline of those letters of Paul).
Even in the time of Acts Christians were worshiping on Sundays as well as Saturdays: Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Any Catholic would know what I was talking about. My mother, one of the most ardent (and conservative!) Catholics I know, taught me about parables and the form they took. None of the Commandments are parables; they're straightforward.
Parable form? What on earth is that?
The Masoretic text does not date from the nineteenth century, nor does the Majority Greek text. (And frankly, the King James Bible was finalized in the very early 17th Century.)
Scripture, tradition and the Magisterium all do. You, on the other hand, only have illegitimate 19th century SDA flavored sectarian proof texting
“The Catholic church, for over 1,000 years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday…You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day we never sanctify.”
Asking Mary to ask Jesus for help is like asking your own mother to pray for you.
Humans are held captive by Satan, the god of this world!
The ransom for humanity's freedom was/is the Blood of Jesus...but we still must choose to walk away from the sin which imprisons us and the father of that sin, Satan.
If you don't understand this, ask God in prayer to show you. He will most certainly do so!
And reread the Holy Scripture with His Spirit leading you through it (i.e. in intense and determined prayer). He will make its Miracles manifest.
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