Posted on 07/25/2010 3:35:08 AM PDT by GonzoII
Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.
This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.
“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.
“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”
He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.
Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.
The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.
In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.
Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.
(Excerpt) Read more at therecord.com.au ...
all of your inane questions can be answered with one verse:
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Thanks, Good Quote. I learned something today...
“Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.”
It is a more personal relationship that marriage, you are literally in full commuion with God. There are no words to describe it fully. It is the same relatuionship that Adam and Eve had with God before the fall.
At what point does that relationship begin with wine and bread? What does He say to you about your relationship at that time and moment? When does the wine and bread change to His actual body as you profess?
The relationship is NOT with bread and wine, it is with the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus in the Sacred Eucharist, and it begins after the substances have been "Transubtantiated, at the moment of Consecration, when the Priest says "This is My Body...." and later "This is My Blood...."
Let me ask you, why don't you take Jesus at His word when He says "This is My Body..." and "This is My Blood..."?
If you look at it in the original Greek, He is actually saying "This is the Body of Me..." and "This is the Blood of Me...", Clearly this is meant to be taken literally, not metaphorically.
But we have full communion with the Lord anytime. He is always accessable and we have His fullness in Christ the moment we are saved. So from what you are implying this is something more than that? Are you then saying as you take communion at some point you are sinless, since that is what Adam and Eve were before the fall?
when the Priest says "This is My Body...." and later "This is My Blood...."
So it is dependant on what the Priest states..He gives the go ahead sort of? What do you mean "Transsubtantiated?" what is happening to you or to the bread and wine?
Let me ask you, why don't you take Jesus at His word when He says "This is My Body..." and "This is My Blood..."?
I do believe the bread and wine 'represent' His shed blood and body on the cross......He said "Do this in... "rememberance"... of me". I see nothing in scripture that it somehow 'changes' to His real blood and flesh. That would then be cannabilism. Further more when He gave the bread and wine to his deciples how could it possibly represent his real blood and flesh since he was sitting right there with them and He told them do this in rememberance of me...there is nothing there where Christ said it changed.
Those are our prayers not those of departed saints. So no you have not answered the questions and quite silly to think that your one statement would answer them...they are precisely worded and require careful answering.
By definition, they mis-quote... ;-)
(At least with regards to the point of heresy.)
Cheers!
I am just very grateful that Christ would never consider any question I might have as “inane”...you just revealed your true colors with that statement. Additionally we know the very best teachers of His word would never make such a statement as well...only those full of themselves and pride from within. Someday you too will learn truth....willing or not you will surely know.
Therefore this conversation is done...I do not respond to people who would at any time consider my questions as “inane”...their hearts are far from His.
But who affirmed the council of Ephesus???
how?
Have you ever prayed for anybody? Ever wanted anybody to pray for you or someone you love?
People ask others to pray for them or their loved ones all the time. We’re such egotistical creatures,prayer acknowledges the supremacy of God. I really don’t understand the objection to asking the Saints and Mary,mother of God to pray for us sinners.
The way this is worded is clearly meant to demean Christ-followers who aren't part of the Roman Catholic Church. "Recruit"? Huh?
No, we're not trying to "recruit" anyone. We are simply preaching Christ crucified. In some cases, it may serve people to leave Rome in order to come home to Christ.
Praise God for His Church, which is the body of believers who've placed their faith in Christ.
What difference does it matter if Mary was the “Mother of God”? Does she have more influence over Christ than other Christ-followers?
Of course I've prayed for others and they for me...Jesus ...but these people are alive and here..not departed. Further they pray directly to Christ, and so do I,.. not something else.
Christ makes intercession for us, alone. There is no need to pray to the Saints or Mary.
Couple of points here. The only time that you are in full communion with God is when you are in a state of Grace. Remember Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Now I don't want to divert this in to a discussion of Confession, but unless you are in a stae of Grace you do not have full commuinion.
So it is dependant on what the Priest states..He gives the go ahead sort of? What do you mean "Transsubtantiated?" what is happening to you or to the bread and wine?
Catholics believe that at the moment of consecration "Transubstantiation" occurs, that the bread and wine literally become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus.
I do believe the bread and wine 'represent' His shed blood and body on the cross......He said "Do this in... "rememberance"... of me". I see nothing in scripture that it somehow 'changes' to His real blood and flesh. That would then be cannabilism.
For the Jewish people when they speak of "Rmemberance" they are actually saying "Participation in" For them when they celebrate the Passover, they are literally preparing themselves for the Exodus. This is why it is so critical to understand the nuances of the languages that are used. Like I said before. in the original Greek Jesus is telling us that "This is the Body of Me..." In John 6 he tells us that we must consume His flesh to have eternal life. There is nothing methaphorical in his description.
You also said about cannibalism. in a very smallsense there is a very samll bit of truth to that (Please don't latch on to that and focus on that rather than the rest of my comment). Part of the Reason that God forbade the Jews from eating certain foods/ blood is that the Jewish peole beleive that the soul is contained in the blood and that by consumeing the blood, you can aquire charecteristics of that being/ person. By consumeing the Blood of Christ, we are able to draw ourselves into a more perfect union with Him.
Further more when He gave the bread and wine to his deciples how could it possibly represent his real blood and flesh since he was sitting right there with them and He told them do this in rememberance of me...there is nothing there where Christ said it changed.
As I said above He literally said that it was His Body and Blood, and in John 6 He tells us that we must consume it to have life in us. And remember I say that it did not "represent" His Body and Blood, Catholics beleive that it literally was/is His Body and Blood> As for how he could do it, He is God, Omnipotent, Infinte and Eternal.
See, it’s your kind of arrogance that divides Christ’s Church. Instead of preaching the sufficiency of Christ, you smuggle in denominational membership as a prerequisite for communion with God.
No, no, no. A million times no. Christ is the Savior of all who place their trust in Him, who’ve been adopted into His family. Before a single Christian arrived in Rome, Christ’s Church thrived among Christ’s family.
May Christ increase. May denominational affiliation decrease. May we find membership in His Church, the Bride of Christ.
Yes, much! Thx to both of you!
Well first of all how can you know they are listening, otherwise your prayers are going into the air. Second of all there is a great gulf between them and us...neither has access to the other. Third cults pray to departed people so how does one then discern the difference? What is the standard you measure by which would differentiate those in the occults and who they are praying to?
What, you don’t talk with dead people? You don’t try to summon the ear of those who’ve died? You’ve only prayed alongside living people?
Mary was a wonderful woman, the one chosen by God through whom the Messiah would come. She was a precious vessel. But she’s dead. And it just strikes me a creepy to try to conjure up dead people so you can talk with them.
Just affirming your observations, caww ...
Was there a Trinity before Mary???
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