Posted on 07/25/2010 3:35:08 AM PDT by GonzoII
Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.
This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.
“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.
“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”
He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.
Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.
The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.
In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.
Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.
(Excerpt) Read more at therecord.com.au ...
You think heretics don’t quote the Bible?
Rome itself provides that evidence by the Popes example...Crowning a life size figure of Mary in the courtyard of the Vatican would surely evidence His devotion to other than Christ. Which you may find on the Vatican Website photos of the Popes. ... Not to mention the vast prayers to Mary and literature which lifts her to the high status she is placed among catholics. The evidence of those writings has been presented over and over and over again on these threads...as most have clearly seen and observed. Additionally ones own investigation of the matter clearly unfolds that their are many and most of the catholic faith who do contrary to Gods teaching ...Do not make graven images...do not bow down to them....do not pray to them as the heathen do.
Catholics believe that the Church guides our practices in its role as educator and nurturer. It guess it is about standards. Rather than accepting YOPIS and the teachings / preachings of the likes of the Rev. Billy-Bob Rolex, Jimmy Swaggert, or Ted Haggert, Catholics willingly accept the guideance of the likes of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, the College of Cardinals, the Popes and the many Synods who have, under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, shaped and guided the Church.
Not you caww, I used the word 'you' but of course, I wasn't speaking of you!
Luk 1:43 "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Do you have this verse in your Bible?
You do know that the Lord is God?. And that by giving birth to the second person of the Trinity, she is indeed the mother of God the Son?
I know; when we start talking about religion it’s like the biggest whizzing contest..So I’ll take Mad Dawg’s lead and say, “Goodbye!!”
Ok Bronx2...show us the evidence to support what your stance is by answering the following....questions which were previously raised but have gone unanswered...
1. provide just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where any believer prayed to anyone else in heaven but the Lord.
2. provide one place where exhortations, commands or instruction on prayer directed believers to pray to the departed. “i.e. “Our mother, who art in heaven...”)..
3. show where believers cannot have direct access to Christ in heaven, or where any insufficiency exists in Christ that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besidwes the Holy Spirit.
4. show where departed souls in heaven are hearing prayers.
5. provide where any communication that took place between earthlings and heavenly beings besides God took place Apart from a personal visitation.
6. provide where making supplication to beings in heaven besides God is sanctioned.
7. show where anyone else is called “Queen of heaven” other than Jer 44:17 (But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven) who is a heavenly object of devotion and prayer.
8. show where any believer has already been crowned in heaven, or why everyone else has to wait until Jesus appearing to receive his. (2Tim. 4:8; 1Pt. 5:4)
9. show that earthly relations always correspond to heavenly ones, so that just as we may feed each other, and married people have sexual relations, so we are to spiritually do so with the departed now. Or where directly praying telepathically to each other on earth is promoted.
Catholics do have a "relationship with Jesus when we recieve him Body, blood, Souls, and Divinity, in the Eucharist. Matter of Fact I would have to say that it is only the Catholics that have a relationship with Him along with our Eastern brothers and sisters.
Remember, and empty cross for an empty religion.
Interesting I watched several debates online between catholics and evangelicals/protestants etc. on the very same issues we discuss here. There answers are similar as well so it does seem this divide between catholics and protestants will never come to a joint agreement other than to not agree. Someone is wrong and neither side is going to stand down. The problem is if a catholic agrees that these actions and such in dispute are indeed not true then in time they will almost have to leave their church. And that is where the problem is...they cannot face the hard inner work and trial of their true faith and truths of....it is easier to remain in the comfort of the familiar.
It has NOTHING to do with Sabellianism. Only Nestorians claim it does.
Slow down a bit, Sabellianism is a denial of the Trinity as well as Nestorianism, just in a different way: Sabellianism: In Christianity, Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism
Just as Arianism denies the Trinity by claiming that Christ was a created being. Arianism: Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. He taught that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a divine being created by (and therefore inferior to) God the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Should offer sufficient shelter from electron fireworks, anyhow!
Ok...explain what that relationship is when you take communion. What happens? What do you experience in your relationship with Him then? At what point does that relationship begin with wine and bread? What does He say to you about your relationship at that time and moment? When does the wine and bread change to His actual body as you profess?
Why thank you for caring. However when one stands on the Rock of Christ Jesus and His word one is protected from the storms of falsehood. He is sufficient for the task.
BTW Are those pictures of you on your page? Awesome shots!
And shortly after that God ORDERED the Israelites to create the Bronze serpent to cure them by stareing at it (And destroyed when they worshipped it as a small g god), and didn't God tell them to create the Ark of the covenant
: Exo 25:18 "And you shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat.
You do know that the Cherubim are angels and were created beings made by God right?
By the way, we don't believe that it's wine and bread any more (other than the mere 'accidents' or appearances). Jesus visits us Himself in the Sacrament -- that's a 'personal relationship', absolutely. But it does not cease when we leave the pew, and it's not the only way to have a personal relationship with Christ. But I find it very helpful and encouraging.
thatjoeguy
“When you say Mary only gave birth to the Man Jesus, when did the “man Jesus” as you state, become God.”
This is mincing words. Mary did not exist prior to the 2nd Person of the Trinity (God) plain and simple. Therefore Mary is not the mother of God. How you wish to explain His incarnation and birth is up to you. My whole point on the conversation was that Mary was only the vehicle which God used to bring Jesus into the world, that does not give her status to be prayed to and treated as a form of Deity.
No, what I said is not mincing words. The consistent teachings of the Fathers and Councils supports the teaching of Mary as “Theotokos” and was formally defined at the Council of Ephesus.
And nothing in the Council of Ephesus (431 AD) and its formal defining of Mary as “Theotokos”, i.e. Mother of God implies that Catholics and Orthodox pray to Mary as she is a diety or does it say Mary existed in Eternity. Mary was born of in the normal ways all human beings are born, yet the “eternal Word became incarnate of her” and thus the constant doctrine of the Church is that Mary is the “Mother of God”. This again, is Protestant polemics and your position is the anomaly and thus is the unorthodox position.
Mary is correctly honored for being the “ark of the New Covenant”, the Mother of God, and thus we pray in communion with her and ask Mary to pray for Us, which is firmly rooted in the Communion of Saints.
As a friendly suggestion, I would recommend you read up on the Patristic Fathers of the early Church and see how the understanding of Mary as “Mother of God” was related to a “Christological heresy” called Nestorianism, which it seem to me, that you are pushing again here some 1600 years later.
Probably ok for short duration events like tornadoes, but it would get unbearable quick if you had to spend 10-14 days in there!
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Yes I do believe all prayers do “float” up to heaven. Considering God is all powerful why would it be hard for me to believe my prayers for intersession would be tuned off and not reach their intended servant?
You keyed in on Moses and Abraham as being alive, but why did you ignore St. Peter and the power to the gates of heaven Jesus handed to him? Oh he only had that power while here on earth? I believe different than this.
Whom all is sitting at the table with God in the vision of heaven? The elders, saints, and Apostles right. The lord entrusted these souls with powers and responsibilities why would he ignore their requests?
Lastly you quoted “1 Titus 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” To this I do not disagree, but that does not mean others cannot advocate for me and you to Jesus(God). Jesus is the key, remember he is God, so what he says goes and I don’t think he will argue with himself.
This gets a bit complicated here so hang on and ask if I don't make it clear. There are three characteristics of God that are important.
He is omnipotent, all powerful capable of doing anything that is not a logical contradiction. He is Infinite, He occupies all of space with His being. He is eternal, He is outside of time and able to view or participate in any moment of time at at will. (As Jesus God the Son, he did have a finite existence on earth).
As an Eternal omnipotent being he was able to extend His sacrifice on the cross to Mary at the moment of her conception. That is why when the Angel greeted her in Luke he was able to address her as "full of Grace". This was not a greeting, but rather a description.
I hope this clears up some of it for you.
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