Ex-Evangelical Protestant dissects conflict with Catholics

The Record ^ | Wednesday, 21 July 2010 | Anthony Barich

[GonzoII]

Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.

This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.

“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.

“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”

He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.

Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.

The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.

In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.

Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.

[Hacksaw]

However, the Catholic church has been growing around the would.

Well, one of the Bornigans told me that for every person who converts to Catholicism, 99,999,000 Catholics leave the church. They read it on the Web somewhere, and it must be true. (sarc)

[narses]

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[Nosterrex]

Evangelism and Baptists are not that far from Catholicism. Both are rooted predominately in sanctification. Evangelicals or Evangelicalism is so theologically broad that it is a meaningless term. It tells me nothing about what an individual or a group actually believes. I was at a funeral yesterday at a black Baptist church, and the preacher ranted for nearly an hour that black men should turn in their pimp cards (his words, not mine). Every once in a while he would throw a “Jesus” into the diatribe. Look at Rev. Wright's congregation. It is no wonder that people are confused and perplexed. They will join just about anything that seems stable. Christianity, at least in the Northern hemisphere, is in theological shambles.

[kindred]

[She indeed suffered with Christ beneath the cross.]

But not for our sins as Christ Jesus did and she did not rise again the third day having defeated death, hell and the grave and later ascend into the heavenlies and sit at the right hand of the Father from where He will come to judge the quick and the dead.
The roman church and the Scriptures differ substantially and God will have His way as the judgment seat of Jesus Christ our Lord will make clear in that day. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God and preexisted the heavens and the earth and all flesh and the angels in heaven, Mary was of the line of Adam and Eve and was not conceived by the Holy Spirit but was virgin mother of the body that God the Word indwelt to suffer and die and rise again the third day in order to defeat death, hell and the grave and him that has the power of death, the devil Lucifer. John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[Olog-hai]

There are also a few other outstanding matters:

• The canonicity of the so-called "deuterocanon" or "apocrypha" (not all of it, but most). Bottom line is, these books were never part of the Masoretic books of the Old Testament and don't belong in the Bible at all. (Romans 3:1-2 explicitly states that it was committed to the Jews to preserve the oracles of God.)
  
  
• Elders, deacons (Gr. diakonos "attendant"), and "bishops" (Gr. episkopos, "overseer") are specified to be the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:2, 12); nowhere is abstinence from marriage and a family life commanded or even recommended.
  
  
• Biggest sticking points are over the sabbath and images/icons. Highly noticeable that the RCC omits the text of Exodus 20:4-6 (concurrent with Deuteronomy 5:8-10) from their list of commandments, despite "thou shalt not" appearing twice in there. Historically, the RCC has been against the sabbath that Jesus kept (the seventh day, or Saturday); the Bible cites the seventh-day sabbath specifically as a sign between God and his people (Ezekiel 20:20), and established forever (especially 2 Kings 17:37, but many other verses).
  
  
• As for Mary, titles ascribed to her such as "queen of heaven" are ones that she herself would find insulting and abominable. The "queen of heaven" was known to the Jews, especially back in the days of the prophet Jeremiah (ch. 7 v. 18: also 44:17-19;25), as "malkuth ha-Shamayim" in Hebrew; this was a pagan goddess that Jews were burning incense to as well as giving cake offerings and drink offerings to, and God specifically said that worship of her provoked him to anger. Furthermore, Mary did indeed have other children; the RCC sometimes tries to use sophistry to turn Jesus' half-brothers into "cousins" (such as the non-distinction between siblings and cousins in the Hebrew and Aramaic words for "brother", "sister" and "cousin"), but since the New Testament was written in Greek, there are specific words for "brother" (adelphos) and "cousin" (syngenes), so the writers of the NT knew what words they intended to use.

There are conservative British that are highly concerned about what they regard as the Vatican's "attack" on the Anglican Church, which they see as an attack on Britain's identity, too. Notice that this goes hand in hand with the attacks by the EU on the sovereignty of its member states, all save Germany.

[don-o]

Maybe you could boil down the 50 minute video relating what the man actually says about what the Pope says about the Trinity. It’s obviously not his main topic - he begins with the sex stuff.

[Doulos1]

Oh my, you can’t be serious.
Confusing the words “Lord” with the word “God”!
Context! Act 2:34 (a quote from Psalm 110:1)
“The Lord said unto my Lord, sit on My right
hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Jehovah (God) is saying to Adonai (David’s Lord=
Messiah) sit on My right hand. Lord means master
or boss. God means God. They are not always
interchangeable. Context “Mary was the mother
of my Lord (the Messiah) she was in no way
the mother of God. See the trouble the followers
of Athanasius get into with their mythical beliefs.
The Messiah had to be a man to save man.
By the first Adam all men fell, by the second Adam
all men are given a chance for everlasting life.

[Elpasser]

This fellow is so deluded.

My family were Catholics for 1,000 years. I left the hocus-pocus, paint-by-numbers approach of the Catholic faith at age 15 when I was offered an opportunity to have a living, personal relationship with Christ.

The Lord isn’t impressed by what denominiation or even how religious you are. The whole point of Jesus’ being born as a man, suffering and dying was to offer us a way to receive mercy and foregiveness for our sins in order to have a living RELATIONSHIP with God at the heart level.

It is actually rather easy to just “touch the bases” of the sacraments instead of really being KNOWN by God, which requires the effort that any relationship does. (See Matt. 7:22-23). Yes, there are some Catholics that know Christ personally and are pursuing Him spiritually. But there are so many more in the Catholic Church (and in fairness other mainline Prot denominations too) who rest in the false confidence that you will be saved if you regularly attend mass, etc. irrespective of the life you live the other six days of the week.

Many spiritually hungry Catholics, like me, leave the church when they come to realize that Christ wants a living, active, personal relationship with you, not some rote observance of ceremonial traditions.

Are you one of those hungry Catholics?

[bronx2]

How many times have the Evangelicals been told that Catholics do not worship Mary, do not believe their own good woks save them and that the Jews deliberately omitted the Deuterocanon since it facilitated too many conversions to Christianity. If you look at most of their inane responses it is apparent they do not possess the requisite intellectual capability to intelligently address these points.

The spiritually bankrupt are full of their own sinful PRIDE allowing their own contrived interpretations to overrule doctrines given to us by the Holy Spirit. God forgives them since they don't fully comprehend His sacred message and the revelations will be made to them at their death. These post are old and never change.

The Pope should broach the subject of the Brits returning confiscated Catholic churches stolen in the 16th century. This would be a excellent opportunity for the Anglicans to practice expiation something that is mandated in the Bible. Perhaps make it a sign of national public penance.

[Houghton M.]

Learn a bit of theology, sir, before spouting off.

Denying that Mary is the Mother of God is the heresy of Nestorianism because it splits Jesus of Nazareth into two parts side-by-side but not sufficiently integrated: it makes Jesus schizoid.

If Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate, Second Person of the Trinity by virtue of the union of two natures, then Mary, being the mother of this united, integrated person, then she was the Mother of God. Not by any virtue of her own but solely by the grace of God and by her faith in God’s annunciation to her that she would be the mother of the Savior.

Savior = God. To save us, Jesus had to be God. Right? Was Mary the mother of this Savior or was she not? That’s all the “Mother of God” (Theotokos) title means. That Jesus is a single, integrated, acting person, not suffering from multiple-personality disorder. That Mary was the Mother of this united, integrated Person, who was the Second Person of the Trinity united to a human nature.

It has NOTHING to do with Sabellianism. Only Nestorians claim it does.

You, Sir, are a closet-Nestorian.

That Mary is the Mother of God was affirmed at the Council of Ephesus in 431. All orthodox Christians since then have affirmed it. Luther, Wesley, John Stott and all Evangelical leaders who know anything about theology agree that Mary was the Mother of God.

[thatjoeguy]

Hey, I’ve got this really cool telescope where I can watch all the fun from my bomb shelter. I’d sell it to you but its the only one I got.

Sorry

[vladimir998]

Jesus is God. Mary is His mother. Mary is the Mother of God. If Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus is not God and there is no Trinity. That would make Christianity a sham and a lie.

[thatjoeguy]

“How do you know that Sabellianism is heresy?”

Well if it isn’t God did a lot of talking to/about Himself in the Gospels.

I can just see their bible’s interpretation of Matthew 28:19

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of Me, Me, and uh Me.

[sportutegrl]

Another Evangelical-bashing thread. Can’t you guys lay off on Sunday. This fool you call brave isn’t brave, because he didn’t speak for himself, he used the weasel word, ‘we’, thus smearing all Evangelicals with his paintbrush. “We” did this . . . , “We” did that . . ., Speak for yourself.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Highly noticeable that the RCC omits the text of Exodus 20:4-6 (concurrent with Deuteronomy 5:8-10) from their list of commandments, despite “thou shalt not” appearing twice in there.”

I am always amazed when anti-Catholics say this because it is so ignorant.

1) No commandment has been removed by the Church - nor could one be.

2) The commandments are not numbered in scripture. Different groups number them differently. Most anti-Catholics are too ignorant about history to know that.

3) What most ignorant anti-Catholics (yes, I know that’s redundant) do is mistake the Catechetical Formula used by Catholics and Lutherans for the full telling of the commandments as understood by the Church.

4) Anyone - even an anti-Catholic - could have enough intelligence to go here and see how ignorant they were: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/command.htm

Thus, we see that all three common forms of the Decalogue are in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They were also listed in toto in the last universal Catechism. Anyone can find them - and their full wording - if they wish to avoid being ignornant. Anti-Catholics, however, apparently enjoy being ignorant.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Another Evangelical-bashing thread.”

I don’t see the thread opener bashing anyone.

“Can’t you guys lay off on Sunday.”

The truth is the truth every day of the week. You could always just not open such a thread if it bothers you.

“This fool you call brave isn’t brave, because he didn’t speak for himself, he used the weasel word, ‘we’, thus smearing all Evangelicals with his paintbrush.”

I don’t think he is smearing anyone so much as telling a sad truth. I have seen this sort of thing first hand. I have encountered literally hundreds of people who were given some training by their sect to get Catholics “saved” and it was all based on ignorance, lies, misrepresentations and half-truths.

““We” did this . . . , “We” did that . . ., Speak for yourself.”

I think he is including himself in that “we”. He is pointing out that he is one of many.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Saying that Mary is the “mother of God” confuses the Persons of the Trinity...”

Nope. Catholics and Orthodox understand it just fine. It’s usually those in sects - those already starting out with bad theology - who don’t get it.

[thatjoeguy]

“Evangelicals or Evangelicalism is so theologically broad that it is a meaningless term.”

Excellent point. One of my favorite quotes is by Walter Martin is a debate he had on ‘Is Mormonism Christian’ on what is a key test as to what it is to be Christian:

“If you are corrupt in your doctrine of God and the person, nature and work of Jesus Christ it doesn’t make any difference where else your right you are not Christian... If you have the wrong God and the wrong Redeemer your lost.”

Walter Martin

[jafojeffsurf]

Was Peter not granted the keys to the gates of heaven? God entrust prophets and saints with his power in various ways and to ask for intervention by saints / prophets is not going to stop anyone from going to heaven.

Note did not Abraham challenge God and ask for the lives of others and win Gods grace for some?

How many times did Moses ask for forgiveness for the Israelite’s?

I say to you asking for intersection and worshiping are two totally different things you do not seam to understand. worshiping is faith in a God intersection is asking for ones help in asking God for help.

[jafojeffsurf]

Catholics believe in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Or God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are one in the same. Thus the relationship of Lord (Jesus) and God can be interchangeable.