Posted on 02/28/2010 6:01:46 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
A 10-minute historical look at one of the most enduring theological debates within the Christian religion. The scholars in the video make a case for how and why Arminianism (Free Will theology) is the root of the vast liberalism we see in the professing church today (and arguably the liberalism we see in the greater Western culture and modern world.)
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
I watched the video. Typical 1 dimensional Calvinist thinking. “Oh how can a God give both freewill and total control” Boo hoo hoo. Bah. Simple. They are not contradictory events. Take for example “Love and Hate”. They are not opposites. God is love and He also Hates. The God Hates this or that list is pretty long... so How can He be a God who IS love but hates so much? Well, if Love and Hate are opposites, He can’t. But they are then OBVIOUSLY NOT. Now, what IS the opposite of Love?
Self. Self is the opposite of love.
In this same way total free choice and absolute predestination are NOT opposites either. How do we know this? The same way we know about hate and love. Both are attributes of God by the scriptures.
What is missing or rather what HAS been missing is “OUR” understanding of the nature of God.
God is a being outside, above and beyond our linear reality. He sees the beginning and end. Directly He IS the beginning and the end. Timeless. We are the one’s who experience time, events and thought in a sequential order.
We have thoughts, make choices and compound events one after the other due to the nature of time/space itself.
But God is outside, surrounding the 4 dimensions of height, length, width and duration. How many more attributes God may have is debatable, but the simple mater of even our primitive 20th/21st century quantum physics answers this once age old paradox.
For us we choose. Step by step, day by day, choice by choice. Paul or Peter COULD make an error. But God choose them because He saw their beginning and end and KNEW they would not. The same as He saw Judas who would error.
All had total free will. Judas cannot say “why did thou makest me this way”, because Judas CHOSE. Satan himself was PERFECT... until... iniquity was found within him.
The Armenians AND Calvinists are BOTH right in what they assert. They are also both WRONG in what they deny.
And that is something that previous generations lacked the scientific understanding of time and physical properties of reality to fully comprehend.
Each camp has clung to one set of Scripture at the expense of other points of scripture. But now, we should be able to put to rest this misunderstanding and return to the real issues of the good news.
Just for the sake of argument, lets assume that calvinism is correct.
In that case liberalism, as well as every other sin, is all God’s fault.
If we have no free will to respond to God’s leading with the choice to do good then we have no free will to reject God’s leading thusly doing evil.
Either we can choose to accept (or reject) God or we can choose to do nothing an sin is God’s fault.
Seeing as the bible tells us to “choose life”, I’ll side with God on this one and say we have a choice.
Presbyterianism, that great bastion of Calvinism, is one of the more liberal churches today. The Free Will Baptist Church, which supports Arminianism, is one of the most conservative churches in America. I think you have a paradox here.
What says you?
The point is, God knows who will choose life. We don't. That's why we must evangelize. As Christ Himself said, "You haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. ~ John 6:36-39
It’s quite sad to me to see Calvinists attempt to lay the problems in and deviations from the Church and it’s Christ at the feet of those who would otherwise be their Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
That is, however, the reality. Arminianism is the cause or at least a contributing factor to every ailment, challenge and heresy eating away at the [predestined] Body of Christ today.
As a Reformation Arminian myself, I suppose, then, that I am at the heart of the problem. Nevermind that I affirm the Bible as the Word of God, that I believe in Divine sovereignty, that I confess the Fundamentals of the Christian Faith.... No, I believe God is big enough to allow “free will” in His creation and STILL be sovereign over it ALL — so I am “the enemy.” I am “the Root of Christian Liberalism.”
There are many Calvinists who need to repent of such divisiveness, foolishness, and arrogance. For those not versed in Arminian Theology — and to show we’re not ALL raving lunatics as SOME Calvinists would have us believe — I encourage you to visit the website for the Society of Evangelical Arminians ( www.evangelicalarminians.org ).
To those who are my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Blessings. To those who won’t acknowledge me as a Brother in Christ — I forgive you...
Nowhere in the video does it say "do not fellowship with Arminians" or "Arminians are going to hell." Nor does it say "You must be a Calvinist to be saved." One can be an intellectual theology expert, and yet not know Jesus Christ.
Christians might not agree on the degree to which GOD is in control of an individual's salvation, but we can agree on the means by which we're saved: "faith alone in Christ alone." "Repenting and believing in the Gospel."
The scholars in the video are making the case that the initial "conservative" emphasis on the role of man's will can lead to a slippery slope effect to more liberal doctrines and philosophies.
1) Liberal Presbyterian sects such as “Presbyterian Church U.S.A” is hardly committed to Calvinist doctrine. While the more conservative sects, “Presbyterian Church of America” and “Orthodox Presbyterian Church” are.
2) By “conservative” do you mean politically/socially conservative or theologically conservative? Sure, one can say the two are linked—but there are plenty of non-Christians (Mormons) who are politically conservative as well, it does not make their doctrines any more valid spiritually.
3) I think one of the problems with some aspects of the Arminian-based “Christian Right” is the idea that bigger government and control of secular government in general, is the answer to solving the moral and social crises facing our society. Think the views of Mike Huckabee or even Rick Warren. Hence things like tax-payer funded “faith-based” initiatives
* A strong belief in man’s ability to “be good” by his own volition can lead to the idea that human beings can improve society by virtue of their own efforts and manmade means. Which is why “free will” thinking tends to coincide with statism. While a Calvinist “total depravity” worldview will promote a skepticism of over-concentration of power in any one place or person. And oftentimes, putting too much faith in politics can lead to de-emphasis of our spiritual duties—which are unchanging regardless of who’s in charge at the secular level.
by the way - according to the Bible - and my core that follows that - we’re all sinners (’depravity’ without God’s redemption in Christ), there are none righteous. The only good that men do is by following that part of God’s law inscribed on their hearts whether they acknowledge it from God or not. Like Sarah Palin has repeatedly stated it (she being raised similarly to me) - can’t trust government ‘cause we’re all Fallen Man.
I do not endorse self-righteous doctrinalism. That's why I pointed out that even the most astute of theologians may not know Jesus Christ. For all I know, there may be more Arminians who make up God's elect than Calvinists.
I am not sure if you watched the video, but I don't believe the people in it carried a haughty or judgmental tone at all.
The great debate is not over whether, from a human perspective, we are accountable for our choices. The debate is over whether GOD has predestined those who will choose Him.
"As I humbly seek God's strength and walk in His Spirit daily."
This verse only testifies to Calvin's conclusions: reliance on *GOD's* strength, not on your own. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds as if your ethic stems from your faith in a great and almighty and worthy GOD and not in belief in the merits of your own efforts, or the strength of your "will."
Let me ask you: if we are not strong enough to lead holy lives on our own, how could we be strong enough to "help God" in saving our own souls? Calvinists believe that salvation is a supernatural miracle wrought on by the Holy Spirit. It is on level with that of the Creation of the world itself. As Paul Washer put it, "Salvation is so hard, only God can do it."
I am of the firm belief that the Bible establishes this truth.
Hi RachelFaith,
I can’t say I disagree with your points. Another analogy one could bring up would be the Trinity: how could GOD be “3 in 1” persons operating together yet separately at the same time? Or the incarnation: how could Christ be fully man and fully GOD at the same time?
I agree that part of the reason why we cannot come to agreement is because GOD does operate on a reality above our thoughts and understanding.
However, I do believe there is enough plainly-stated evidence in the Bible to justify Calvin’s conclusions, particularly with regard to God’s full sovereignty over salvation. And NO, I am not implying that one has to necessarily agree with these conclusions to be saved. As I told a previous poster, for all I know, more Arminians than Calvinists make up God’s elect.
And don’t forget there is a such thing as hyper-Calvinism.
Liberal Presbyterianism, you see, moves away from Calvinism by their own free will. They could be more Calvinistic by moving towards Calvinism and putting the beliefs to use in their lives. You still have the problem of free will here and in every belief system in the churches.
Most of the time, if not all the time, Calvinism is preached to the people who are already saved. They accept it because it looks right but not all of it is.
The Jews in the Bible practiced a form of Calvinism back in the early days of the New Testament. They thought they were saved by the virtue of being a Jew (the chosen ones) but Paul says no, that everyone who has heard the gospel will have to make a decision to become born again by the Spirit of God or not.
And that is exactly what free-will believers believe!
According to 5 point Calvinism as I undertsand it, evangelism is useless. Those people who are "pre-ordained" to be saved will be saved. They cannot avoid it, they are doomed to salvation. Those who are "pre-ordained" to hell will go to hell no matter how much they are evangelized. They are doomed to hell.
Nothing anyone does can possibly affect this as the people have no choice.
Mother Theresa (for example) did all those works of charity exactly, and only, because God pre-ordained her to do so.
The serial rapist murderer does so exactly, and only, because God has pre-ordained him to do so.
God is totally sovereign and nothing happens unless He ordains it to happen. Free will doesn't exist.
So if we evangelize those who are doomed to be saved will be saved. If we do not evangelize, those who are doomed to be saved will be saved. It would be a better use of our time to go fishing (In my opinion).
(end Calvinist viewpoint)
The problem with this whole viewpoint is that according to Calvinism we are merely robots fulfilling our programming. We cannot be accountable for anything becuase we have no choice to do anything. God is merely a huge puppet master saving some and damning some for His own enjoyment.
Hardly the picture that the scriptures paint of God. So either the scriptures are wrong and God really doesn't care for us at all, or Calvins interpretation of scripture is wrong. I'll side with scripture.
As Christ Himself said, "You haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. ~ John 6:36-39
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Yep Jesus draws EVERYONE to himself. Some answer, some don't. But all have the choice.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Oh my, Scripture says that God is not willing that ANY should perish. And according to Calvin God ALWAYS gets what he wants. So either everyone goes to heaven (that is, no one persihes) or Calvin is wrong. Again, I'll side with scripture.
God knows everything that is going to happen. AND He gives us free will to choose good or evil, to accept Him or reject Him. There is no contradiction.
They are two sides of the same coin.
If God predestined us as the Calvinists believe, then no one is accountable for anything as we are doing exactly, and only, what God has already declared we will do. (Even this conversation and the exact words I type are determined by (and only by) God).
If God predestined everyone for salvation (Which I believe He has since He is not willing that any should perish) and some refuse to accept it, then we are accountable for our actions.
God knows who will choose Him. But He doesn't make the choice. He gives us every chance so when we get to the judgement seat we have no excuses. We can't say "You forced me to choose to live this way". Or "You forced me to reject You". We will know that we chose the way we chose of our own free will and that we have sentenced ourselves to hell (or hopefully, accepted salvation and chose heaven).
CP:
If I was perceived to have read into your post anything you did not intend, I ask your forgiveness. I was reacting to what I have experienced from all too many Calvinists in their words about Arminians in the past.
To some degree, I can agree that, once some are “freed” from a particular theological framework, from a certain set of affirmations, unless they are grounded in TRUTH alone, they tend to drift to another exptreme. I don’t believe that’s true just of those who left Calvinism and moved toward (and then far beyond) Arminianism, however. One sees the same thing within the context of Calvinism (consider the Presbyterian CHurch, USA for instance, or the “Unitarian” churches of New England in 1700’s and 1800’s New England — they started in Calvinist churches).
The same case could be made for early Baptists, for the Anabaptists of the radical reformation, and for the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement....
The point being, yes, there is room among brothers and sisters to hold to different views of soteriology within the framework of “salvation by grace alone through faith alone,” and yet affirm the cardinal doctrines of Christianity.
Blessings to you — and thanks,
Patriot Preacher
Thanks.
place holder.
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