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time4good,

I do not endorse self-righteous doctrinalism. That's why I pointed out that even the most astute of theologians may not know Jesus Christ. For all I know, there may be more Arminians who make up God's elect than Calvinists.

I am not sure if you watched the video, but I don't believe the people in it carried a haughty or judgmental tone at all.

The great debate is not over whether, from a human perspective, we are accountable for our choices. The debate is over whether GOD has predestined those who will choose Him.

"As I humbly seek God's strength and walk in His Spirit daily."

This verse only testifies to Calvin's conclusions: reliance on *GOD's* strength, not on your own. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds as if your ethic stems from your faith in a great and almighty and worthy GOD and not in belief in the merits of your own efforts, or the strength of your "will."

Let me ask you: if we are not strong enough to lead holy lives on our own, how could we be strong enough to "help God" in saving our own souls? Calvinists believe that salvation is a supernatural miracle wrought on by the Holy Spirit. It is on level with that of the Creation of the world itself. As Paul Washer put it, "Salvation is so hard, only God can do it."

I am of the firm belief that the Bible establishes this truth.

CP, I don't endorse self-righteous anything. Your sentence "This verse only testifies to Calvin's conclusions: reliance on *GOD's* strength, not on your own" is a typical example of something that bugs me about Calvinists - Calvin's conclusion? It's plain as day throughout the entire Bible!!! Tons of 'Armenians' believe the same way!. Everyone I've ever heard or have known also believe that it's a Supernatural miracle - to be born again! This is what Calvanists choke on though - the point that God gave Man free will and yet everything given and pushing and surrounding a man's heart to decide to follow (throughout the Bible) is God's power - but/and - the person's choice - it's NOT a thing of 'works', it's a thing of faith, fully inspired also by God - but the person choosing - it doesn't make it 'works' but they must decide "Choose ye this day whom you will serve". Calvanists also conveniently twist the verse 'for whom He did foreknow, He also predestined' the foreknowledge comes first, thus sensibly able to predestine.

I also beg to differ on 'the great debate' - we are indeed accountable (Romans 1, Galations, Revelation, Matthew 24/25, Ezekiel 18, etc). Thus Satan's use of/invention of Evolution. If, as Calvanists believe, God predetermined and I have no free will - then I'm not accountable. You can't have it both ways.

CP, thanks for being able to discuss reasonably, not pompous and arrogant as has been the norm in the past with Calvinists on FR. Off to work.

The great debate is not over whether, from a human perspective, we are accountable for our choices. The debate is over whether GOD has predestined those who will choose Him.

They are two sides of the same coin.

If God predestined us as the Calvinists believe, then no one is accountable for anything as we are doing exactly, and only, what God has already declared we will do. (Even this conversation and the exact words I type are determined by (and only by) God).

If God predestined everyone for salvation (Which I believe He has since He is not willing that any should perish) and some refuse to accept it, then we are accountable for our actions.

God knows who will choose Him. But He doesn't make the choice. He gives us every chance so when we get to the judgement seat we have no excuses. We can't say "You forced me to choose to live this way". Or "You forced me to reject You". We will know that we chose the way we chose of our own free will and that we have sentenced ourselves to hell (or hopefully, accepted salvation and chose heaven).