The Gospel and the Church (LDS general authority censorship) (OPEN)

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[greyfoxx39]

The Gospel and the Church
By Ronald E. Poelman
The First Quorum of the Seventy
General Conference October, 1984

Two different version of this talk were distributed. The first was given over the pulpit at general conference, the second was published in the Ensign and on the official conference videotape. Differences between the two talks are highlighted in red. Deletions from the original talk are set off by strikethrough Font, while additions in the Ensign version are Underlined.

Conference Version	Version Published in the Ensign and on Video Tape
Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine.	Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine,
However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.	and there is an essential relationship between them that is significant and very important.
Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.	Understanding the proper relationship between the gospel and the Church will prevent confusion, misplaced priorities, and failed expectations and will lead to the realization of gospel goals through happy, fulfilling participation in the Church. Such understanding will avoid possible disaffection and will result in great personal blessings.
As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.	As I attempt to describe and comment upon the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.	The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles, laws, and ordinances which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.
The principles and laws of the gospel never change.	Gospel principles never change.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God.	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth administered by the priesthood of God.
The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.	The Church has the authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.
The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual's life.	The gospel is the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is divinely commissioned to provide the means and resources that implement this plan in each individual's life.
Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.	Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures may be changed from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.
Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. .	Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures.
As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.	As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we can more effectively utilize the Church to make our lives more gospel centered.
Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.	The eternal principles of the gospel implemented through the divinely inspired Church apply to a wide variety of individuals in diverse cultures.
The conformity we require should be according to God's standards.	Therefore, as we live the gospel and participate in the Church, the conformity we require of ourselves and of others should be according to God's standards.
The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual.	The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles, eternal law, and direction given by those authorized in the Church.
It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance.
The source of this perspective is found in the scriptures and may appear to be presented in a rather unorganized and untidy format.	A necessary perspective is gained by studying and pondering the scriptures.
The Lord could have presented the gospel to us in a manual, systematically organized by subject, perhaps using examples and illustrations.
However the eternal principles and divine laws of God are revealed to us through accounts of individual lives in a variety of circumstances and conditions.
Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various messengers at different times and places.	Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various prophets in a variety of circumstances, times, and places.
We see the consequences as it is accepted or rejected, as its principles are applied or not to varying degrees and by many different people.	We see the consequences as the gospel is accepted or rejected by individuals and as its principles are applied or not.
In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies are utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.	In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies were utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.
Through scripture study we may learn eternal principles and how to distinguish them from and relate them to institutional resources.
As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.	As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.
A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.	A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.
It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.	It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.
It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.	It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.
It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.	It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.
In the first two verses we read, "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel....." (Leviticus 19: 1-2)	In the first two verses we read, "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel....." (Leviticus 19: 1-2)
Here is the principle of revelation.	Here is the principle of revelation.
God speaks to his children through prophets.	God speaks to his children through prophets.
He does so today.	He does so today.
Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, "....say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2)	Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, "....say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2)
Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.	Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.
There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.	There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.
Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.	Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.
For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.	For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.
In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.	In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.
Generally, today that rule is not necessary.	Generally, today that rule is not necessary.
The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.	The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.
Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.	Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.
However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.	However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.
Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles.	Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles.
The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, "....thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." with the added divine imprimatur, "...I am the Lord."	The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, "....thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." with the added divine imprimatur, "...I am the Lord."
Every church member has not only the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices, but has the need and obligation to obtain such assurance by exercising his free agency, thereby fulfilling one purpose of his mortal probation.	Every church member has the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices.
Without such assurance, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.	Without such a witness, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.
Indeed, it is not enough that we obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders.	We should obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders;
In response to study, prayer and by the influence of the Holy Spirit we may seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.	but also through study, through prayer, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit, we should seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.
Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.	Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.
Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate institutional goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.	Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate Church goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.
When we understand the difference between the gospel and the Church and the appropriate function of each in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.	When we see the harmony between the gospel and the Church in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.
Institutional discipline is replaced by self discipline.
Supervision is replaced by righteous initiative and a sense of divine accountability.	We will exercise self discipline and righteous initiative guided by Church leaders and a sense of divine accountability.
The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, but to discover and adopt the eternal truths of the gospel.	The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, and interpretations but to learn and live the eternal truths of the gospel.
Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.	Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.
My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.	My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.
I continue to do so.	I continue to do so.
However, that which I know most surely and which has most  significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.	However, that which I know most surely and which has most significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.
By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.	By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.
Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.	Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.
May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.	May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.
In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, "... may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God." (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.	In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, "... may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God." (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

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From Wikipedia: In the October 1984 general conference of the LDS Church, Poelman delivered a sermon entitled "The Gospel and the Church". Controversy ensued when the version of his sermon that was published in the November 1984 Ensign magazine differed significantly from the sermon Poelman had delivered orally.^[5] Further, the videotape copies of general conference that were included in church archives and distributed throughout the church contained Poelman delivering the revised version of his sermon. A "cough track" was included in the retaping to make it appear that the revised sermon was delivered in front of an audience.^[6]

One commentator has criticised the changes to the sermon as a dramatic shift in the meaning of Poelman's address:

"The rewriting and refilming of Elder Ronald Poelman's October 1984 Conference address, originally a rare and inspiring defense of free agency, so that it became yet another cry for obedience. His text was not edited — his ideas were turned inside out."^[7]

Poelman was not invited to speak in general conference again for four and a half years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_E._Poelman

[greyfoxx39]

The mormon church boasts of "free agency" for its members. The above article is an example of the twisting of this "benefit", in what seems to be a conflict with the following:

"When our leaders speak the thinking has been done"

Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.

 

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[greyfoxx39]

Inman ping.

[Godzilla]

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles, laws, and ordinances which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.

Except for Jesus who for some reason was exempt as well as the Holy Spirit

Poelman was not invited to speak in general conference again for four and a half years.

It took that long to get the tread marks out after being thrown under the bus?

[greyfoxx39]

It took that long to get the tread marks out after being thrown under the bus?

He evidently got the message...

"May we also be so strengthened and submissive." From Ronald E. Poelman, “Tithing: A Privilege,” Ensign, May 1998, 78"

[Tennessee Nana]

Mormonism is not Christianity...

While Christians worship Jesus as the coming King at Christimas time...and display the Baby Jesus in the manger..

Mormons worship Joey Smith and display a cradle in a cabin for him...Jesus is not mentioned...

Christians sing Christmas Carols...about the birth of Jesus..

mormons sing “Praise the man” about Joey Smith...

And then there’s Easter...

So Merry Smithmas to all the mormons...

And Merry Christmas to the Christians...

[delacoert]

Further, the videotape copies of general conference that were included in church archives and distributed throughout the church contained Poelman delivering the revised version of his sermon. A "cough track" was included in the retaping to make it appear that the revised sermon was delivered in front of an audience.

The cough track idea was an important revelation no doubt.

[Godzilla]

The cough track idea was an important revelation no doubt.

You know, people often accuse us of altering lds history in a misleading manner. Yet are blissfully ignorant when their very own church in reality alters history right under their noses. In this case the lie is more important the the truth.

[greyfoxx39]

In this case the lie is more important the the truth.

This whole article is an eye-opener regarding the "free agency" of mormonism. Couldn't be any plainer, IMO.

[Godzilla]

This whole article is an eye-opener regarding the "free agency" of mormonism. Couldn't be any plainer, IMO.

Indeed, speak of 'free agency' and have your speach re written and retaped with pseudo crowd noises.

[reaganaut]

bookmark for tonight

[Gamecock]

So are you saying the Mormon Church plays fast and loose with doctrine?

[greyfoxx39]

So are you saying the Mormon Church plays fast and loose with doctrine?

Nah, it's that "continuing revelation" thingy, ya know? If dacktrin is inconvenient after a few dozen decades, like blacks isn't worthy, and pligamy is a no-no, it is "revealed" that what you aksually heard wasn't what you reely heard....sometimes, it doesn't take but a few days for the revealin'.

[reaganaut]

I remember when I was LDS, listening to General Conference and someone making a point I thought was really interesting and wanted to remember, so I made a note about it.

I don’t remember what the point was, but I do remember being excited when the “Conference issue” of the Ensign came out so I could look up the talk. I re-read the talk over and over again, and couldn’t find the point. I was puzzled and irritated.

As LDS members we are taught these talks are the “word of the Lord” for the Church. To see it changed above, so drastically, is an eye opener. Did God change his mind in between the time the talk was given and published?

My old pastor publishes his sermons in audio format, and he has never done this.

And why the “cough track”? That seems dishonest.

Tadpole, you are forthright in your answers (which I admire very much), what is your take on this?

[reaganaut]

So are you saying the Mormon Church plays fast and loose with doctrine?

- - - - - - -

Well getting most LDS (including the Leadership) pinned down on what exactly IS doctrine, is like nailing jello to the wall.

Even “official” doctrine changes at the drop of a hat, without official revelations. Both polygamy and the blacks and the priesthood have been changed by “manifesto”s not a “thus saith the Lord”.

Add to that the vast “lay theology”, things that are believed and taught by LDS members, and even taught by the General Authorities in talks, sermons or books, that is considered accepted as doctrine my many (if not most) rank and file LDS, will all of a sudden be considered “not doctrine” if it embarrasses the LDS or is used against them.

I cannot count the number of times that I was taught something while LDS, both at Church and BYU, that all of a sudden became “we don’t believe that” to gentiles.

Fast and loose? Yeah, like a hooker down at the red light district.

[T. P. Pole]

Re: changing General Conference talks between delivery and publishing.

In another time I was an elders quorum president faced with teaching a class not paying attention. The 4th Sunday these days is "teachings for our times" where the bishop or stake president selects a general conference talk for the lesson.

We tried all kinds of things to encourage participation and having folks read the lesson ahead of time. Things like treats for those that read the lesson before church, and making sure the lesson schedule was published.

One thing I regularly did was send an email with a link to the video version of the talk we were to discuss. And in my personal prep, I would watch the talk online while reading and highlighting the published text. It quickly became a game of "find the Easter egg." I would point out while teaching the lesson where the text changed from the video.

So yes, I have noticed, and the elders in my ward at the time also had no choice but to notice.

The explanation I have heard (and that I accept) is that the talks are approved ahead of time by the first presidency, and sometimes the delivery varies from the approved version.

Now, is this variance caused by add-libbing? Or willful disobedience? Or are corrections second-thoughts, made after delivery? I don't really know, and suspect all of these reasons and more.

Are they caused by an attempt to hide things from the lay members? Nah, not any more. Too many people can easily find for themselves these situations.

[T. P. Pole]

Mormonism is not Christianity...

So says orthodox Christians.

While Christians worship Jesus as the coming King at Christimas time...and display the Baby Jesus in the manger..

Mormons worship Joey Smith and display a cradle in a cabin for him...Jesus is not mentioned...

You know, I saw that picture the other day. It was funny to me. I am pretty sure where ever that is, that at Christmas time there is appropriate Christmas decorations.

My wife is insane. She has at least 15 or so nativity scenes around the house. She kept about 5 of them up all year long.

So no, we don't worship Joseph Smith. We do revere him as our first prophet and the restorer of the Gospel of Christ. But we do not worship him, regardless of what you may suggest below.

Christians sing Christmas Carols...about the birth of Jesus..

mormons sing “Praise the man” about Joey Smith...

Maybe once in December, near his birthday. But Mormons also sing Christmas Carols. We do have them in our hymnal. I count 14 of them. I happen to have the list of hymns for our ward's sacrament meeting for this month.

Dec 6th - O #203 Angels We Have Heard on High, S - #181 Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King, C - #213 The First Noel
Dec 13th - O - #212 Far, Far Away on Judea's Plains - S - #O Savior, Thou Who Wearest a Crown - Special Music (mens quartet singing Away in a Manger) - C - #209 Hark, The Herald Angels Sing
Dec 20th - O - #201 Joy to the World - S - #Jesus, Once of Humble Birth - Primary (3songs) - Ward Choir (The First Noel and Hark! the Herald Angels Sing) - C - #204 Silent Night
Dec 27th - O - #134 I Believe in Christ - S - #193 I Stand All Amazed - I - #202 Oh Come, All Ye Faithful - C - #217 Come, Let Us Anew

Sure looks like we sing Christmas Carols. Of course, you have to pretend otherwise, or you wouldn't be able to make these false claims.

Then again, you just admitted that Mormons are Christians, since only "Christians sing Christmas Carols." Oops. :)

And then there’s Easter...

Where we sing two or three of the four Easter Hymns in our Hymnal - 197 O Savior, Thou Who Wearest a Crown, 198 That Easter Morn, 199 He is Risen!, 200 Christ the Lord is Risen Today.

Oh, were you suggesting something else here?

So Merry Smithmas to all the mormons...

And Merry Christmas to the Christians...

And Merry Christmas to so-called Christians who lie for Jesus.

[reaganaut]

You know, I saw that picture the other day. It was funny to me. I am pretty sure where ever that is, that at Christmas time there is appropriate Christmas decorations.

- - - -
That picture was taken in the BYU admin building in Dec. 2005, and the “JS nativity” as we call it, was in lieu of traditonal Christmas decorations.

Although, I do not doubt there are more “tradtional” Christmas decorations around campus, I do not remember ever seeing a nativity scene on campus (but I could be wrong).

The point nana was trying to make (I think) is that while Christmas IS a part of LDS culture, there is also (especially in Utah) an over enthusiasm for Joesph Smith’s birthday (Dec. 23).

I remember the first year I was in Utah, I was shocked that the ward had a “Happy Birthday, Joseph” party instead of a Christmas one. Others have pointed out that close to Christmas, there is many mentions of JS’s birthday (even over Christmas) in ward newsletters, programs and the like, even to the point of ward talks focusing on Joseph’s birth a couple of days before Christmas, rather than the birth of the Savior. I am sure you can see how that would be disturbing and/or bothersome to someone outside the LDS.

Many I know have commented (LDS and Ex-LDS) that is seems JS is more important this time of year than Christ.

[Gamecock]

Tennessee Nana: Mormonism is not Christianity...

T. P. Pole: So says orthodox Christians.

Seen posted multple times elesewhere on FR by Salt Lake City Momons: "fLDS aren't Mormons" (paraphrased)

So T.P., who defines the real religion?

If Orthodox Trinitarian Christians can't define Christianity, who can? Not an outsider for sure.

If outsiders make the definition, then you, by your own standards, have to see the fLDS as your brothers and sisters in Mormonism.

Now, since you want to play Christian, do you agree with Mormon teaching that:

-God had sex with Mary
-There are multiple "gods" and you yourself want to be one one day?
-That you are saved by works, with Jesus just cleaning up your act a bit?
-People can be converted after they die, and therefore you participate in creepy baptismal ceremonies?

Sorry FRiend, blaring Christmas music, putting up a tree with lights and displaying nativitiy scenes out doesn't make one a Christian. That's no different than putting a bicycle in the garage and calling it a car.

[Elsie]

And Merry Christmas to so-called Christians who lie for Jesus.

[Elsie]

Mormonism is not Christianity...

So says orthodox Christians.

 

Flds folks ain't MORMON!!

So says SLC headquarters...