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Judge Romney By His Religion? I Do It, and So Should You.
Race 4 2012 ^ | November 30, 2009 | Alex Knepper

Posted on 11/30/2009 6:01:03 PM PST by delacoert

I’ll just leave this here…

Before a defense of any kind of religious discrimination, one ought to make all of the necessary disclaimers: of course I oppose government-sponsored discrimination, and I certainly would not support the kind of absurd treatment described by Steven Reinhart in his piece featured below. That being said, there is a legitimate case to be made for judging any candidate for office by his religious convictions.

In late 2007, Mitt Romney made his somewhat-famous speech on religion, where he spoke the following words:

“Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.”

Similarly, Romney has stated: “I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it…my faith is the faith of my fathers. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.”

If freedom requires religion, if his Mormon faith sustains his life and he will be true to those practices, then I’m at an utter loss as to why we should ignore Romney’s religious beliefs when evaluating his fitness for the White House.

We ask plenty of questions of any Evangelical Christian candidate: what do his beliefs about the nature of God, the nature of the cosmos, and the meaning of man’s life mean for his potential tenure in office? But for whatever reason, these questions are looked at as unnecessarily piercing and prejudiced when asked of a member of a minority faith.

When Sarah Palin gave her fumbling answer about Israel’s settlements, several commentators jumped on her faith, wondering whether she subscribed to the bizarre but potent sect of modern Christianity that believes in the imminence of the End Times. Will anyone ask Mitt Romney about the oddities of the dogma of the Mormon Church? There are plenty of Mormon doctrines that may strike people as a bit odd — and rightly so. It is established in the church that the devout can reach the upper echelons of heaven and eventually become gods themselves, able to create their own universes and govern them as they see fit (all while supervised by the One True God). Why is it that when I bring this up to Romney fans, I am dismissed as a bigot?

As an atheist, I both understand and accept that in a predominantly Christian society, my thoughts on religion are necessarily going to open me up to questions. If I were to ever run for office (don’t count on that, by the way), I would not expect my supporters would try to ward off any questions about my atheism with the victim-card of discrimination. One’s philosophy of religion contributes profoundly to his worldview and thus is a completely valid criterion by which to partially evaluate a candidate’s fitness for office.

I view all religions as equally bizarre and irrational. But mainstream Christianity is often adopted as a cultural guise, meant for purposes of assimilation with the majority. Probe most self-described Christians and you’ll find plenty of deviation from standard dogma. Devotion to Mormonism, which is completely outside of the American mainstream, requires a certain level of commitment. To what extent will Romney’s faith influence his decision-making? I ask that question of devoted Evangelicals and judge them accordingly, and I will do the same of a Mormon. And I am not going to apologize for that.


TOPICS: Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: braindeadbigots; excusesexcuses; hidebehindreligion; mitthides; mittwhit; mittwhits; mittwits; mormon; mormonism; rino; rinos; romney; romneyhiding; unusualtopic
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To: TChris; Elsie; ejonesie22; Godzilla; greyfoxx39; Colofornian

Wow. That is some spin. It wasn’t the membership, just their belifs. OY. Are they really teaching that now? Because that is FAR from what I was taught 20 yrs ago when I was LDS. But then again, the Protestant minister in the temple was still the hireling of Satan.

And regarding how they felt about members of other churches, what about these quotes? Sounds like they are lumping us all in together.

2nd LDS President Brigham Young - “when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness” (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

“The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

“With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world” (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

“Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth” (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

The “Brother Taylor” Young refers to is John Taylor, who after Brigham’s death in 1877, became the third president of the LDS Church. Here are some of his feelings toward Christianity:

“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century” (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God” (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt - “…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (The Seer, pg. 255).

First Counselor (to Brigham Young) Heber C. Kimball - “Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth….” (Journal of Discourses 5:89).


301 posted on 12/01/2009 2:32:28 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: All

placemarker


302 posted on 12/01/2009 2:33:52 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Tennessee Nana
And he would have known that how ???

Well, since it was the Lord whom Joseph was quoting, I don't think there's any problem with His knowledge.

What was it that was wrong ???

Nice attempt to change the subject.

The point is that your statement that Joseph Smith HATED Presbyterians is completely false.

303 posted on 12/01/2009 2:35:58 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: delacoert

To: reaganaut

...spin their words (and even lie about their beliefs) in order to make the LDS Church or themselves look good. I can easily see this tendency spilling over into politics.

Indeed. I have never not heard the telltale signs of lying-for-the-lord, milk-before-the-meat training from the lips/writings of fully vested Mormons.

- - — - - - - -

Indeed. I was even taught to do that in preparation for my LDS mission. A good part of the reason I ended up not going.


304 posted on 12/01/2009 2:37:00 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Elsie
Then WHY did he say their denomination was UNTRUE?

That's an inaccurate generalization.

I have given the accurate quote upthread from here.

There is much (even most?) of what Christian sects teach that is good and true. We believe and teach that fact adamantly. Tens of thousands of converts every year are convinced that what we offer is a wonderful ADDITION to what they already know and love about the Gospel.

That is NO data to back up his statement; therefore a reasonable person would gather that he was lying.

There is plenty of data to back it up, but some choose to ignore or disbelieve it. That's up to each individual. But to say that there is none is just not true.

Once again, it's a question of which side is right.

And you do not lie about folks you don't hate.

Whatever...

305 posted on 12/01/2009 2:43:40 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: Colofornian
...to make that sound like "this is the Mormon line about followers of Christ" 2300-2500 years later (even if we concede it was written then) is ludicrous.

Really? God can't see that far into the future, huh?

306 posted on 12/01/2009 2:44:39 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: ejonesie22

307 posted on 12/01/2009 2:45:15 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232; ejonesie22; Elsie; Godzilla

First off, SOP for you, deflection rather than answering the questions.

And I don’t agree with them either. Killing someone in the name of religion is wrong. Period.

And there were political and financial factors involved in the Crusades and the English/Irish wars. It wasn’t all about religion, and in many cases not even mostly about religion. You really should read some of the newer books on the Crusades and Inquisitions.


308 posted on 12/01/2009 2:45:52 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: TChris
"...the Personage who addressed me...

Now THIS little snippet should SURELY engender faith in someone!

309 posted on 12/01/2009 2:47:19 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: americanophile

Gnosticism isn’t a different Christian denomination, it is a distinct Christology that focuses on “special knowledge” and rituals.

The LDS church is MUCH closer theologically and practically to Gnosticism than Gnosticism is to Traditional Christianity.


310 posted on 12/01/2009 2:48:43 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: TChris
He also did not condemn the people of any sect, Presbyterians or otherwise.

Would you PLEASE make up your mind!!!

... those professors were all corrupt...

311 posted on 12/01/2009 2:49:21 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TChris
Man, at least get your 1830 termonolgy correct.

The professors thereof (i.e. priests, pastors, etc.) are all corrupt - That is NOT a condemnation on the general members of the various sects

Get a dictionary, professor is - one that professes, avows, or declares - thus the member of the 'sect' professes the beliefs of that 'sect' - hence professor. Throw in ALL of the commentary against these MEMBERS by your prophets throughout the years to date and you can save the lives of a lot of electrons by posting this fluff apologetic.

So, the claim that Joseph Smith hated any people of any sect is completely false. He did not. He also did not condemn the people of any sect, Presbyterians or otherwise.

Sorry to break it to you, but that statement is false:
"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

2 Nephi 28:14

Reformed Egyptian from 540 BC using the Greek transliteration "Christ" 540 years before He was born and even before it was present in the greek to begin with.

Is that any different than any other church? Doesn't the Catholic church teach that protestants are wrong? Don't protestant churches teach that Catholics are wrong? Of course they do, in one way or another. So why condemn Joseph Smith for teaching that other churches are wrong?

My, the fluff is thick here. Smith went beyond just 'wrong', lets be honest. He wrote in 1 Ne. 14: 10:" And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

This is echoed by your missionaries on a daily basis. So please, spare us the falsehood regarding mormon teachings regarding Christianity.

312 posted on 12/01/2009 2:50:50 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: americanophile
they are responsible for major splits in the Christian church.

DUH!!

There will soon be SPLITS between the folks who reject HOMOSEXUALITY as an 'alternate lifestyle' and those in the church who say "can't we all just get along."

Will it take an ecumenical council to do it?

313 posted on 12/01/2009 2:53:22 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Information that previously was difficult to verify (LDS church leader quotes and Temple ordinances) is easily available.

...and the TRUTH shall set you free.

- - - - - - -
Amen.

Ironically, I originally set out to prove those evil “anti’s” wrong and to prove the LDS church right. It was a real eye opener to find out that the “anti” sources were correct and in context, and the LDS “responses” were not.


314 posted on 12/01/2009 2:54:06 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: americanophile
I am interested in the force that threatens them all; Islam SIN!.
315 posted on 12/01/2009 2:55:34 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Enosh

Thank you, my work here is done. Although I fear this unserious attitude towards Islam will kill us all.


316 posted on 12/01/2009 2:56:36 PM PST by americanophile ("For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.")
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To: reaganaut
Wow. That is some spin. It wasn’t the membership, just their belifs. OY. Are they really teaching that now? Because that is FAR from what I was taught 20 yrs ago when I was LDS.

No, not really. All your quotes pretty much add up to the same thing. The doctrines were false and had led people astray.

To lead people astray from the truth is the work of Satan, is it not? Now that is NOT to say that people who have been led astray from the truth have WILLINGLY or KNOWINGLY followed Satan, after all, he is the master deceiver.

These are the same brothers and sisters we work so hard to teach and enlighten and convert. Would we do that if we HATED them and thought them to be willing followers of Satan?

We believe good Christians are deceived and astray, not evil and damned for eternity.

317 posted on 12/01/2009 2:56:56 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: americanophile; ejonesie22

A sect is different than a denomination.

Secondly, all Traditional Christian groups agree on the basics. Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is God, Born of a Virgin, died on the cross for the sins of man, was resurrected, and belief on Him is required for “salvation”.

Huge differences? Give me some.


318 posted on 12/01/2009 2:57:36 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: ejonesie22

yes...you arguing with yourself.


319 posted on 12/01/2009 2:58:25 PM PST by americanophile ("For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.")
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To: GOP_Lady
Rush taught us how politics worked

Why in the world were you ignorant of that before?

You needed to be "taught" like a child?

320 posted on 12/01/2009 2:59:29 PM PST by humblegunner (™)
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