Posted on 11/30/2009 6:01:03 PM PST by delacoert
I’ll just leave this here…
Before a defense of any kind of religious discrimination, one ought to make all of the necessary disclaimers: of course I oppose government-sponsored discrimination, and I certainly would not support the kind of absurd treatment described by Steven Reinhart in his piece featured below. That being said, there is a legitimate case to be made for judging any candidate for office by his religious convictions.
In late 2007, Mitt Romney made his somewhat-famous speech on religion, where he spoke the following words:
“Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.”
Similarly, Romney has stated: “I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it…my faith is the faith of my fathers. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.”
If freedom requires religion, if his Mormon faith sustains his life and he will be true to those practices, then I’m at an utter loss as to why we should ignore Romney’s religious beliefs when evaluating his fitness for the White House.
We ask plenty of questions of any Evangelical Christian candidate: what do his beliefs about the nature of God, the nature of the cosmos, and the meaning of man’s life mean for his potential tenure in office? But for whatever reason, these questions are looked at as unnecessarily piercing and prejudiced when asked of a member of a minority faith.
When Sarah Palin gave her fumbling answer about Israel’s settlements, several commentators jumped on her faith, wondering whether she subscribed to the bizarre but potent sect of modern Christianity that believes in the imminence of the End Times. Will anyone ask Mitt Romney about the oddities of the dogma of the Mormon Church? There are plenty of Mormon doctrines that may strike people as a bit odd — and rightly so. It is established in the church that the devout can reach the upper echelons of heaven and eventually become gods themselves, able to create their own universes and govern them as they see fit (all while supervised by the One True God). Why is it that when I bring this up to Romney fans, I am dismissed as a bigot?
As an atheist, I both understand and accept that in a predominantly Christian society, my thoughts on religion are necessarily going to open me up to questions. If I were to ever run for office (don’t count on that, by the way), I would not expect my supporters would try to ward off any questions about my atheism with the victim-card of discrimination. One’s philosophy of religion contributes profoundly to his worldview and thus is a completely valid criterion by which to partially evaluate a candidate’s fitness for office.
I view all religions as equally bizarre and irrational. But mainstream Christianity is often adopted as a cultural guise, meant for purposes of assimilation with the majority. Probe most self-described Christians and you’ll find plenty of deviation from standard dogma. Devotion to Mormonism, which is completely outside of the American mainstream, requires a certain level of commitment. To what extent will Romney’s faith influence his decision-making? I ask that question of devoted Evangelicals and judge them accordingly, and I will do the same of a Mormon. And I am not going to apologize for that.
Absolute nonsense, Mormonism is no no ‘threat’ to anyone who does not willingly accede to it...Islam not only denies the Christ, which Mormons do not, but seeks to destroy the faith.
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I said SPIRITUALLY the LDS are a bigger threat. And they DO deny the Christ of the Bible and replace him with their own version which is FAR FAR different. The LDS have their own Christ. The danger lies in that the LDS pull people from the Biblical Christ.
Quote by the previous LDS prophet, Gordon B. Hinkley:
President Gordon B. Hinckley, responding to a question regarding whether Latter-day Saints believe in the “traditional Christ,” stated:
“No I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. “
Physically, and as part of THIS world, Islam is more of a threat. But I would much rather lose my life than allow, by my inactaion, the damnation of another soul.
Well guess who we won't be hiring for TSA...
Nor does my argument suggest or require that you should accept another’s viewpoint of Christianity as reality.
...and this threat exceeds that which comes from Islam?
Now, if you knew someone who thought Jesus had a beak and flew a spaceship, do you think that belief would give you pause in voting for them?
...no, because he would still be a Muslim.
One either follows the basic concepts of Christanity or they are following something else entirely.
This isn't a committee...
The Oprahization of America just leaves me speechless...
Well, no. But you're closer to the truth than Elsie's claim.
Joseph Smith recorded, "...the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'"
Some notes on the REAL quote:
1) Their creeds are an abomination - As an example, if the Mormons are right, and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are actually separate beings, not the conglomerate taught in the Nicean Creed, then that creation of men is an abomination. It's a question of who is right and who is wrong.
2) The professors thereof (i.e. priests, pastors, etc.) are all corrupt - That is NOT a condemnation on the general members of the various sects. A person can be good, honest and sincere and simply wrong about important doctrines. But one who is making a profession of teaching things he doesn't actually believe, and working to win converts to increase his paycheck would certainly be a "corrupt professor". Even well-intentioned ministers can be influenced to one degree or another by the money involved, which corrupts his motivations.
But in any case, that condemnation is not against the membership. In fact, the Book of Mormon says of these, "...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Nephi 28:14) This confirms that Mormons understand that there are "humble followers of Christ" who have simply been taught false doctrines.
So, the claim that Joseph Smith hated any people of any sect is completely false. He did not. He also did not condemn the people of any sect, Presbyterians or otherwise. He taught that their creeds and many of their doctrines were wrong.
Is that any different than any other church? Doesn't the Catholic church teach that protestants are wrong? Don't protestant churches teach that Catholics are wrong?
Of course they do, in one way or another. So why condemn Joseph Smith for teaching that other churches are wrong? If not so, then he would have simply joined one of them.
Now go with that...
Take it one step further...
I don’t care if you vote for Mitt Romney at all. I care about equivalency arguments being drawn regarding the relative threat posed to Christianity between Mormons and over a billion Muslims bent on the destruction of all other faiths in the dar al-harb.
Kid you were the one who posted several long mormon verses in #193
Non-mormons dont use mormon words to support mormonism...
The Christians here post the mormons own words to expose the cult as anti-Christian etc....
Here are a few more quotes of the LDS bashing Christians:
2nd LDS President Brigham Young - “when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness” (Journal of Discourses 5:73).
“The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171).
“With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world” (Journal of Discourses 8:199).
“Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth” (Journal of Discourses 6:176).
The “Brother Taylor” Young refers to is John Taylor, who after Brigham’s death in 1877, became the third president of the LDS Church. Here are some of his feelings toward Christianity:
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century” (Journal of Discourses 6:167).
“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (Journal of Discourses 6:25).
“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God” (Journal of Discourses 13:225).
LDS Apostle Orson Pratt - “…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (The Seer, pg. 255).
First Counselor (to Brigham Young) Heber C. Kimball - “Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth….” (Journal of Discourses 5:89).
Certainly several hundred non-mormons and Mormons were murdered by BY and his crew.
And even if it were only one non-mormon (which it wasn’t) it is still one too many.
Get a grip.
Well, you obviously have a limited understanding about the history of Christianity. There have been repeated committees about the subject, they are called ecumenical councils, and they are responsible for major splits in the Christian church. Surely you've heard of Nicaea? Surely you understand the concept of the great schism? Of the Reformation? Etc? There are plenty of viewpoints to accept - from the nature of Christ to the accounts of the gospel, and all things in between. There has never been a consensus on the 'basic concepts of Christianity.' If there's an Oprahization going on, it's by people who are breathtakingly uninformed about things such as these.
Islam not only denies the Christ,
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Actually they dont ...
Moslems agree that Jesus did live as a real man, a good man, a prophet...they read His words..
It is the mormons who deny the Jesus of the Bible and reject Him His death on the cross for pur redemption and His words...
To the mormons, Joey Smith is their savior and died for them, not Jesus...
If it wasnt for the current death to infidels thingy that the Muslims have, the Moslems would be closer to Christianity than the Mormons...
Both Moslems and Mormons had that same death to infidels/Gentiles at the beginning...
Christians are the “anti-Christ...
Thats why the mormons in these threads call Christians “antis”
Short for “anti-Christ.. although they sometimes add “mormons” and make it “anti-mormons”
But we know what they mean...
Presbyterians or otherwise. He taught that their creeds and many of their doctrines were wrong.
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And he would have known that how ???
What was it that was wrong ???
Indeed. I have never not heard the telltale signs of lying-for-the-lord, milk-before-the-meat training from the lips/writings of fully vested Mormons.
Actually they dont ...
You don't know what you're dealing with lady. Islam does not regard Jesus Christ as the Messiah. I'm well aware of their borrowed acceptance of him as a prophet.
tGnostic Christology is not acceptable either. And There is a huge difference in arguing whether or not the HS proceeds from the Father AND the Son (filioque) and LDS Christology which states:
Jesus is:
...our elder brother,
...a spirit brother of Satan,
...was conceived by God having sex with Mary,
....didn’t HAVE to die on the cross since he shed his blood in the Garden of Gethsemane,
...isn’t the ONLY High Priest,
...had to earn his Godhood
...and “saves” all mankind by letting them be resurrected since REAL heaven (the Celestial Kingdom) is only for good Temple going Mormons.
That Jesus was a polygamist.
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