Posted on 09/24/2009 8:55:54 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
First, an apology for making this a cacused thread. I know that Fundamentalist Protestant FReepers will feel cheated at having their religious beliefs explained by one not of their number, but to leave the thread open would be to invite thousands and thousands of posts, each and every one of them quoting the "new testament" to "prove" this and that. While I am no longer a Fundamentalist Protestant or chr*stian of any kind, I nevertheless used to be one and feel competent to explain their beliefs to Orthodox Jews--especially when those beliefs are so misunderstood and misrepresented.
I also feel compelled to inform the reader that while I am no longer a Protestant or chr*stian of any kind I still very much consider myself to be a Fundamentalist, for two reasons. First, "fundamentalism" as I define the term is the equation of religious truth with actual truth (ie, facts) rather than with allegedly more "profound" non-factual truth (note that this does not at all preclude deep profound truths that lie beneath the surface, nor does it entail a rejection of an authoritative Oral Interpretive Tradition). Secondly, "Fundamentalist" is as much an ethno-cultural designation as a theological one, and this means I was born a "Fundamentalist" and will remain one until I die because I was born a poor Southern rural Anglo-American (ever heard a Black Biblical literalist called a "Fundamentalist?").
Now, having established these parameters, to the gist of this post.
A very devout, very learned, and in fact very "fundamentalist" (non-Modern) Orthodox rabbi for whom I have the greatest respect has a video at his web site (otherwise I could not share this information) in which he says that no matter how pro-Israel or pro-Jewish Fundamentalist chr*stians may be, their friendship can never be fully accepted because they still believe that Jews "go to hell," which he interprets as the belief that Jews are "evil" and that Fundamentalist chr*stians must hate Jews if they believe such a thing. And I'm sorry, but this isn't true. Fundamentalist chr*stians do not believe that Jews are any more "evil" than any human being (including Fundamentalist chr*stians themselves) nor do they hate them. The fact is that, just as Fundamentalist chr*stians misunderstand Judaism because they impose their own worldview onto it, Orthodox Jews misunderstand the purpose of Fundamentalist chr*stianity, and that purpose is not to create good people or to suffuse the lower world with G-dliness. It is "to save souls."
In the Fundamentalist chr*stian worldview, every human being born into the world since the sin in the Garden is born "damned." He is born that way because thanks to "the Devil" he has something G-d never intended him to have--an evil inclination. You see, as they understand it, G-d, being good and perfect, simply cannot be responsible for the existence of evil or imperfection in any way whatsoever. In fact, He cannot abide it. His only option, compelled by His own holiness, is to "damn" every human being who is flawed and imperfect. Sounds harsh? Well, to you it does. To them it makes perfect sense. Get set for some real "multiculturalism," Reader!
Now every human being born into the world (though the Jewish mystical tradition disagrees here) has certainly been born with an evil inclination--a yetzer hara`. It is this, and not the actions to which it leads, that deserves "eternal damnation." The yetzer hara` is like a disease, and actual individual sins are like the symptoms of that disease. In any diseased population there will be some variety in the manifestation of symptoms. But the disease, along with its consequences, is present in all. This means that for the Fundamentalist Protestant (just as an example) both Joseph Stalin and Mother Teresa are equally worthy of damnation. The fact that the former manifested more symptoms--ie, more actual sins and acts of evil--has nothing to do with it. They both were born with the disease. Both deserved, and were destined, for "eternal damnation." Fundamentalist Protestants in no way hated Mother Teresa, nor did they consider her "evil" in the same sense that they consider Joseph Stalin to have been evil. But they insist that they both had the same "disease."
So if G-d did not create the yetzer hara`, who did? Their answer: "the Devil." Here G-d had created a world every bit as perfect, flawless, and sinless as Himself (being holy, He could have created no other kind) when along comes an evil supernatural counterpart and mucks the whole thing up. The world that was intended by G-d to be as perfect and sublime as Himself was now flawed and imperfect, and the Good G-d can respond to imperfection in only one way. Yes, like "Nomad" on that episode of "Star Trek." And a lack of personal sins or the presence of great personal holiness in this or that individual doesn't change a thing. Yes, so-and-so may have blessedly few symptoms, but the disease of imperfection is still present.
So G-d hit upon a wonderfully ingenious plan that would provide a loophole for each individual while still allowing Him to maintain His holiness by damning every single imperfect individual cursed with a yetzer hara`. [`Avodah zarah warning: read the following with caution] He would, chas vechalilah, incarnate Himself as a human being and then, chas vechalilah, vicariously damn Himself in the place of every single solitary human being who would ever live. This way He gets to maintain His holiness by damning every flawed, imperfect, sinful being (ie, every being with a yetzer hara`) while everyone has the opportunity to not actually experience this damnation personally. The catch: to take advantage of this loophole one must explicitly "accept" it. Every single solitary human being who does not explicitly accept this "gift of salvation" must, by G-d's holiness, be eternally damned. As for those who do accept it, they still deserve to be damned, but they can't go to "hell" because in G-d's eyes they're already there!
Sof davar hakol nishma`. Period. End of story. That's it, people. There are no commandments to observe and, actually, no "religion" to "practice." There is only this one-time-only acceptance of the "gift" and that's the end of the whole thing. It's not so much a "religion" as an innoculation program. The sole purpose for living for each and every Fundamentalist Protestant (unless they're Calvinists or universalists, and some are) is to help innoculate each and ever single human being. Now, from the perspective of Orthodox Judaism/Noachism this is horrifying, but these people do not have that perspective. It's a different religion, people. That means a different worldview and a different purpose. And to expect them remain chr*stians and not have this attitude is absolutely unreasonable and utterly impossible for them in good conscience. If they shared the Orthodox Jewish/Noachide worldview they wouldn't be chr*stians in the first place!
Like I said: real multiculturalism!
So what is to be done? Why, the answer is simple: convert them.
No, not to Judaism, but to the Noachide Laws, the true and only G-d-authorized religion for all non-Jewish humanity.
What is the root of this entire erroneous worldview? A denial of One G-d. A belief in an evil counterpart of G-d who spoiled G-d's perfect creation and in fact acted as a sort of co-creator, G-d forbid, in that he helped produce the world as it exists today. They don't understand that G-d, by His Blessed Will, intentionally created this lowest of all worlds with all its imperfections (even before the sin in the Garden). They have never heard of the first sin in history being committed by the ground before man was even created, or of the envy of the moon, or that HaShem Himself mandated a "sin offering" in His own behalf for having reduced the moon. They do not understand that G-d created the yetzer hara` and placed it within Adam before the commandment not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge had even been given. They do not understand that G-d Alone rules supreme and absolutely and that HaSatan is merely one of His angels doing his job, like all the others.
Do you know why they don't know this? I'll tell you why.
No one has ever told them!
And why has no one ever told them these things? That's simple also. It's because they were too busy calling them "haters" and "bigots" and "intolerant" to do so. And when they weren't calling them that they were trying to make liberal chr*stians out of them. How many millions and millions of dollars have been spent on "museums of tolerance," "brotherhood" campaigns, or propaganda to convince Fundamentalist chr*stians that "all religions and all 'gxds' are equally valid?" (And how in the name of all that is reasonable can anyone who goes by the name of Jew propagandize for such a thing?) And so long as Fundamentalist chr*stians sincerely believe that G-d wants them to "save" every single human being they will continue to try to do so and nothing you can say or do will dissuade them. You may criminalize chr*stian proselyitism, but all you will do is make Fundamentalist chr*stians into criminals by doing so. What if the government outlawed circumcision or eating matztzot during Pesach or qeri'at shema`? Whom would you obey--men or G-d? Then why do you ask Fundamentalist chr*stians to behave differently? They will stop trying to "innoculate" the world for only one reason: because they know that G-d has not commanded this. Once they know that they are not presently objectively obeying G-d then they will be able to stop proselytizing with a clear conscience. Until then each and every one of them feels personally responsible for every single individual who dies "unsaved." Considering that fact, I think they display remarkable restraint. They actually deserve to be praised, not calumniated for their "intolerance."
I myself can personally testify as to how liberating learning the Truth can be. I had always believed that after "Satan" had (chas vechalilah!) "run G-d off His throne" that he had "taken over" as the "gxd of this world" and that ever since Adam "acquired" the yetzer hara` by eating the fruit that I and every single human being was born the property of "Satan." By nature, he was our "gxd." G-d, the One, A-mighty, Omnipotent G-d, the King of the Kings of the Kings, was no longer naturally G-d. He didn't become a person's G-d until they received their innoculation. Until that point "Satan,"and not G-d, was "gxd." No matter how much I loved and desired Him, no matter how much I prayed to Him, He was not my G-d and would never be my G-d until I had received my "innoculation" (the "assurance" of which I never had, which meant that I had not received the "innoculation" at all even after doing everything I was supposed to to receive it). Do you know how astounding it is to Fundamentalist chr*stians to see Jews calling G-d their Father and enjoying a relationship with Him without having to ever pass "from nature to grace?" The idea that every single human being already has a relationship with G-d merely because He is our Creator and L-rd, is absolutely incomprehensible to them. Yet they already have this relationship. And all they have yet to do is to acknowledge it and accept HaShem as their G-d to complete the process. No "innoculation" or "salvation experience" required.
Before closing bringing this vanity to a close I would like to address two other areas. The first is the difference between Fundamentalist Protestant and ancient liturgical chr*stians; the second is the issue of Jews, especially Orthodox Jews, promoting "tolerance" as the greatest virtue.
On the surface, Orthodox Jews will feel much less afraid of and much more comfortable with Catholic, Orthodox, Non-Chalcaedonian, and Non-Ephesine chr*stians. This is somewhat ironic considering that it is precisely these churches that have committed the vast majority of all chr*stian atrocities against the Jewish People. But they do not proselytize--in fact, are as opposed to Protestant missionaries as Jews are--(being, like Judaism, essentially ethnic religions, however "universal" they proclaim themselves to be), and they do not subscribe to the radical antinomian "loophole" soteriology I have elucidated above (since they hold that the world has been "redeemed" for two thousand years and every human being born since that time is born into a "redeemed" world and assumed to be somewhere on "the path of redemption" himself). However, this is not to their credit. Fundamentalist Protestants have taken the Pauline doctrine of the inadequacy of the "Law" (the Holy Torah) and have very logically and consistently applied it to all human effort. The more ancient versions of chr*stianity, on the other hand, have restricted Paul's critique of "the law" to the Holy Torah. It alone is useless. It alone has been replaced. Natural human efforts to the good are still valid and useful, and of course they claim that after abrogating the Torah (G-d forbid!!!) G-d immediately replaced it with the laws, ceremonials, and customs of chr*stianity (chr*stmas replacing Pesach, rosary beads replacing tefillin, etc.). However easier to get along with these chr*stians are (at least in the modern world), their animus to the Torah is much greater because it alone is rejected as "insufficient for salvation" ("salvation" not being its purpose to begin with). In rejecting all human effort--and very much rejecting traditional chr*stian law and ceremonial--Fundamentalist Protestants are acknowledging that no law could ever be greater than the Holy Torah. If it is (chas vechalilah!) "insufficient," then so is all human action. And contrariwise, if any human action had any merit at all, it would be obedience to the Holy Torah. It must also be remembered that Fundamentalist Protestant antinomianism and rejection of "unwritten tradition" was not formed in opposition to Judaism but to Catholicism.
Then of course there is the fact the that "tolerant" and "philo-Semitic" chr*stians whom most Jews prefer to the Fundamentalists almost always have a very low view of the Torah and deny that any authorititative Revelation has ever occurred in history, but that all claimants at such revelation are myths. Of course such people don't believe that Jews "go to hell." They don't believe anyone does! And yes they "respect" Judaism--but no more and no less than any other religion on the face of the earth, since they are all "equally valid." Why in the world would Orthodox Jews want to encourage such an erroneous attitude?
And this serves as a useful segueway to my final point, which is that Orthodox Jews have no business promoting "tolerance" in the first place, and for a very good reason: Orthodox Jews are Monotheists (indeed, the only true Monotheists), and Monotheism is the antithesis of "tolerance." A "monotheist" who advocates "tolerance" as the supreme virtue is like a square circle--a contradiction in terms. If it's tolerance you want, then I have the perfect solution for you: polytheism. It's the most tolerant religion in the world! The rabbi I mentioned at the beginning of this vanity points out in his videos that until chr*stianity arose there was no "anti-Semitism" in the modern sense of the word and that the ancient world, with some exceptions, was very "tolerant" of Jews. But the ancient world was polytheistic! Of course when non-Jews abandoned polytheism for a watered-down monotheism they became intolerant. Monotheism teaches that G-d is a Jealous G-d, not a "tolerant G-d!" For any Jew to proclaim in one breath that the essence of Judaism is undying warfare against polytheism and in the next that Judaism teaches tolerance of all other faiths is to flatly contradict oneself. If Jews want a tolerant world, Jews should drop Monotheism at once and become crusaders for the restoration of ancient polytheism.
I would like to make just one more point. It is often pointed out that Judaism teaches that "the righteous of the nations have a portion in the World To Come," but this is grossly misunderstood. The "righteous of the nations," objectively speaking, are observant Noachides, not "all good people regardless of what they believe." Once again, this is objectively speaking. Subjectively speaking, only G-d alone can judge the heart of each individual and know whether that person would be an observant Noachide if he understood this to be G-d's Will. However, speaking objectively again, all non-Jews are commanded to relinquish all false religions (including "monotheistic" ones like chr*stianity and islam) and accept and abide by the Seven Noachide Commandments and all their implications (with repentance always available for our failures, thank G-d!). So once again Judaism, while it does not and has never sought to make Jews out of all humanity (the Jews are a small chosen nation), are nevertheless commanded to "compel"--not "suggest," but compel--all mankind to abandon their false "gxds" and their idols and accept HaShem and His Laws. So much for "the righteous of the nations have a portion in the World To Come" making this unnecessary.
In closing, I apologize for my often blunt and corrective language in addressing Orthodox Jewish FReepers who for the most part are not guilty of the things I wish to correct, but as the case of the pious rabbi I mentioned illustrates, even the most understanding of Torah Jews do not truly understand the Fundamentalist Protestants because they do not share their worldview. I have elucidated that worldview to the best of my poor ability not to proselytize for it (G-d forbid!) but to make it better understood so that its adherents may be better apprised of their true duties to G-d and be liberated from all false and erroneous religious doctrines.
May HaShem direct this to the hearts of those who need to understand.
Who was b*ddha? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Mohammed? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Guru Nanak? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Joseph Smith? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Baha'ullah? How do you describe his character and nature?
I reject the claims of all the above "religious" personalities, and all the others besides. I'll stick with G-d, thank you very much.
Please re-read the post at the head of this thread. Its purpose is to defend Fundamentalist Protestants from the charge of bigotry, not to argue about J*sus.
You did, and it is very interesting.
I had the pig flu, and was pretty sick, as were the kids.
First time I recall sitting out Yom Kippur. We all just stayed home.
Thank you. My apologies for the double ping, but I thought I had forgotten you.
I had the pig flu, and was pretty sick, as were the kids.
Very sorry to hear it! Wishing all a refu'ah shelemah.
First time I recall sitting out Yom Kippur. We all just stayed home.
Sorry you missed the services. There's always next year (when hopefully Mashiach HaMelekh will be reigning!).
I read "the post at the head of this thread" very well thank you. In it you declare several purposes, one of them to "apprise [Christians] of their true duties to G-d and be liberated from all false and erroneous religious doctrines."
By announcing that as one of your purposes I am quite confident that anyone posting to this thread is free to discuss Jesus Christ and to expect answers to any and all questions about the faiths you have interwoven.
Please re-read the post at the head of this thread. Its purpose is to defend Fundamentalist Protestants from the charge of bigotry, not to argue about J*sus.
I read "the post at the head of this thread" very well thank you.
You're welcome!
So what is to be done? Why, the answer is simple: convert them.
No, not to Judaism, but to the Noachide Laws, the true and only G-d-authorized religion for all non-Jewish humanity.
...
If Jews want a tolerant world, Jews should drop Monotheism at once and become crusaders for the restoration of ancient polytheism.
What are you saying? Should Jews advise the rest of humanity to the Noachide Laws and to polytheism?
As I told you before, use www.openoffice.org for superior formatting and crash resistance.
Hello Religion Moderator -
Am I allowed to use ...
1) Torah
2) Old Testament (Soncino Tanakh)
3) Talmud
... to establish that the Messiah of Judaism ...
1) Is God
2) Came in the 1st century
Thank you,
This Religion Forum thread is labeled “ecumenical” so yes, you can make your case using any or all of those sources as long as you are not being antagonistic.
>but I simply don't want the thread derailed by post after >post after post after post quoting the "new testament" to >"prove" this or that and to proselytize.
Hello ZC. I hope you have been well.
Back in your thread titled "A Noachide's response to chr*stianity (Vanity)" I answered your post #39 systematically, point by point, in post #40 using only ...
1) Torah
2) Old Testament (Soncino Edition translated by Jews for Jews)
3) Talmud
... and I DID NOT get a systematic, point-by-point response from you.
Thus, I don't understand how it is that you state that Christians somehow need to retreat to the New Testament and Christian sources to prove the deity and messiahship of Jesus Christ.
Put another way, I agreed to your terms of sticking to Jewish sources only, and you still didn't give a full, point-by-point reply, as I did for you.
Lastly, you attempted to impugn my character in your post #41 by suggesting that I lied about my Jewish heritage and blood. Being also made in the image of the Eternal, you are better than that.
“Please do not highjack this thread, whose purpose is explaining that Fundamentalist Protestants are [not] “haters” and bigots.” Thank you. :-)”I do hope that my superscript edit (as denoted by brackets) of the above quote from your post 23, represents what you intended to write.
“There are two Genesis stories. In neither one was Eve forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
AND YET, Christianity blames women for the sins of the world.”
“Wrong, as your statement requires negating that Adam was the head of the wife, and thus the wife was commanded through him not to eat of the forbidden fruit.”
I do not accept that Adam was the head of the wife. They were created as equal. Male and female created he Them. And they had no names. THAT came later too.
Adama is Latin. I doubt they spoke Latin when they first began the Oral Tradition of the Bible.
1st Genesis story-Genesis 1
26
And G-d said: ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.’
27
And G-d created man in His own image, in the image of G-d created He him; male and female created He them.
28
And G-d blessed them; and G-d said unto them: ‘Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.’
29
And G-d said: ‘Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed—to you it shall be for food;
30
and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food.’ And it was so.
31
And G-d saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
*************************************************************
NO Tree of Life, NO Tree of Knowledge, NO admonition not to eat of ANY tree, just the opposite:
And G-d said: ‘Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed—to you it shall be for food;
**************************************************************
SECOND Genesis Story-Genesis 2
16
And HaShem G-d commanded the man, saying: ‘Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;
17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.’
18
And HaShem G-d said: ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.’
Genesis 3
1
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which HaShem G-d had made. And he said unto the woman: ‘Yea, hath G-d said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?’
*********************************************************
As you can see, G-d spoke ONLY to Adam. Eve had not yet been created, and she was NOT Adam’s servant, she was his helpmeet.
22
And HaShem G-d said: ‘Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.’
23
Therefore HaShem G-d sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24
So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life.
**********************************************************
So WHY would it have been perfectly fine to eat of the Tree of Life WITHOUT knowledge, but not good WITH knowledge?
Because the purpose of a male and female PAIR is to procreate as per Genesis 1. Had they eaten of the Tree of Life, there would have been no need to procreate, and the command to be fruitful and multiply would have had no meaning whatsoever.
You assume Adam had knowledge. So too does a bird. But it isn’t the kind of knowledge that can be learned. THAT innate knowledge is called instinct, and G-d created Man to live by his wits AND his instincts.
A bird could never have invented the wheel, let alone have dominion over the other beasts of the earth.
Whoever added the second story felt the need to explain aging and death, why men did not live forever since man was created in G-d’s image, and they believed the only way it could be explained was that somehow, G-d had been disobeyed. It explained why there was pain associated with childbirth and why man was not immortal as G-d surely is. Otherwise, the literal “created in the Image of G-d” could not explain why man’s flesh dies.
At any rate, in neither story was the woman commanded by G-d not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge because in the first, there wasn’t any, and in the second, Eve had not yet been created.
I had to go and read through the posts which you referenced. They are very long and very full of errors on both your parts.
However, it is 5:40 AM and I need to rest and rest my eyes which are glazed over from reading all this.
If you truly want a response, I will be glad to take it point by point as you suggest, but it will take some time.
I appreciate the ping. As long as we stay factual, I will participate.
So as to give you an idea of what my refutations will be based on, please understand that the Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Egyptians into Greek and had to be salvaged.
The NEW Jewish Bible “written by Jews FOR Jews” is trash as far as I am concerned. It is a corrupt modernization which I do not accept.
Again, thank you for asking me to this thread. I will certainly enjoy the debate.
Don't tell me I forgot to type "not!" Oy!
As to my "impugning" your character, I asked if you were really Jewish because some people misrepresent themselves, and some do. You certainly misdated the Babylonian captivity.
As I have said many times, Judaism has nothing to prove. The burden of proof lies entirely with the new religion, chr*stianity. Unless and until it proves itself absolutely, the assumption of truth lies with the older religion, Judaism.
I do not need to provide a point-by-point refutation. The Torah is supreme and the Torah does not authorize or even provide for such a religion as chr*stianity. Its commandments are stated to be eternal many times, and the only reason the Prophets we have today are in the Hebrew Bible at all is because they were canonized by the Men of the Great Assembly, which means that they were understood from the beginning to be in submission to the Torah. 'Nuff said.
Your invoking RaMBa"M and the Talmud overlooks the fact that both these sources, which you claim have a view of Mashiach in harmony with chr*stianity, rejected that religion. If chr*stianity were as harmonious with their understanding as you say it is, then they would have certainly endorsed that religion, but they did not.
Now please read my vanity post at the head of this thread. I think it describes your beliefs (as stated on your FR home page) very accurately.
bump
Point by point it is.
To reply to you both in one post:
1) MestaMachine: IF you and/or Zionist Conspirator continue to post on FR, AND respond to well meaning Christians with responses that denigrate the New Testament against Torah principles, AND then offer the excuse that only Torah is valid against the teachings of Torah, AND neither of you finish the discussion started by ZC in the thread I linked to, THEN I will continue to challenge you with Torah, Talmud, and Tanach to the effect that Messiah came in the 1st century.
2) MestaMachine: “If we stay factual”. Sure. I appreciate that the Torah is the word of God, and so long as we obey Torah principles in the discussion, I am OK. I trust that both of you will understand the difference between “staying factual” and a difference of opinion regarding the conclusion drawn from systematic reasoning given a body of evidence with Torah principles as a guide. “The Law of the Lord is perfect”.
3) MestaMachine: Regarding the Soncino Tanach (Old Testament) which I used being corrupt, and not the Tanach of choice today by the Orthodox Jewish community: Sure man. You point me to the definitive, sanctioned, recognized, approved English translation used by Orthodox Jews the world over, and I will acquire a copy, and use that going forward. No problem. I don’t mind saying that I am not Hebrew fluent, but I do have access to Christians (Gentile and Jewish) who are, so it might take some time for me to get back to you from time to time, but get back to you I will.
4) MestaMachine: You want to attack the authority of the Septuagint? Let’s hear it.
5) MestaMachine and Zionist Conspirator: One of you are willing to finish the discussion started by ZC and myself? I welcome it. Every time my faith is challenged, it is stronger at the end of the challenge. I can only profit from a discussion with both or one of you, and I am happy to invest my time in this way.
6) ZC: You did not address my Hebraic, Torah reasoning in the claims I made. The brief justification you make in post #95 do not begin to address the points I made. You are handwaving, and hoping nobody notices. I notice, and so does HaShem. You are definitely better than this. You can meet me point by point. I welcome this, and encourage you man!
7) Have a great day gentlemen.
You then invoked the criteria for a true prophet as enumerated in the Torah. Yet you continue to ignore the case described in Deuteronomy 13 of the false prophet who makes predictions which come true but which are to be ignored because they are merely a test from G-d to see if the hearers of such prophecies (and witnesses of such fulfillments) really will stay with the Torah rather than going to something new.
Then you invoked RaMBa"M as a wintess for chr*stianity even though he rejected it.
I begin to wonder why you are do absolutely fixated on justifying your conversion to chr*stianity. The only reason I can figure is guilt.
At any rate I am satisfied with my own position and stand by it. So long as the Torah does not authorize chr*stianity, chr*stianity's claims fail the test.
I don't think MestaMachine is coming from the same place I am so I cannot answer for him/her.
Chr*stianity is based on the "new testament" just as mormonism is based on the "book of mormon." IF those revelations are true, then naturally their religions are as well. But to claim that either is alluded to in the Torah or Hebrew Bible is simply ludicrous.
Pinging kosta to this old debate for his interest.
“1) MestaMachine: IF you and/or Zionist Conspirator continue to post on FR, AND respond to well meaning Christians with responses that denigrate the New Testament against Torah principles, AND then offer the excuse that only Torah is valid against the teachings of Torah, AND neither of you finish the discussion started by ZC in the thread I linked to, THEN I will continue to challenge you with Torah, Talmud, and Tanach to the effect that Messiah came in the 1st century.”
First of all, I was not on the other thread you are referring to. I read what you pointed to until my eyes glazed over. a ONE post response would be almost impossible.
I do not know Zionist Conspirator and was not pinged to this thread by her and do not agree with her either.
You misunderstand my response. I asked you if you seriously wanted to pursue this discussion, but received no reply.
I posited that the translation of the Old Testament in common use is mistranslated in many ways.
I ALSO dispute common interpretations of Torah Principals by overeducated psychologists.
I also posit that every effort to concord the Old Testament with the New often requires the skills of a verbal contortionist and a misapplication of recorded history, and sometimes statements made up of whole cloth which are totally and completely irrelevant. There are others which seek to dismiss Old Testament history by replacing it with speculation. Still others which denigrate Old testament history when it doesn’t factually agree with profferred concordances.
I can give you many instances of this.
The reason I haven’t responded is because you did not alert me to your seriousness. It isn’t worth the time or the effort if you were not serious because I seek no conversions and am expressly forbidden to do so.
I disagree with ZC on a lot of things, but she is right about there being NO pointers to Christianity in Torah or in any translation of the Old Testament including the modern ones.
That said, I do not want to denigrate anyone’s faith except maybe islam which is abomination beyond abomination.
So by disputing you on facts, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am NOT questioning your FAITH. Only your facts.
I would ask you to be very specific and take it a point at a time, ask me the question, and I will answer.
What you have asked for a response to requires a volume or two and many hours of time.
So I ask you, how important is this to you if the point is you trying to convince me I am wrong, and I respond with how you are wrong? Is it going to change your life? Because these are lifechanging beliefs and not to be taken lightly.
I am very secure in my skin and with my faith. Why do you challenge it? Would you accept proof as proof? Would you admit being wrong if I show you where and why you are wrong? Is there any REAL value to challenging my faith except for you to try and convert me, which is simply not going to happen?
I don’t know you. Please tell me what the point of this is. If it is educational debate, fine.
State your case on THIS thread ONE point at a time. I live my faith. I don’t write about it 24/7. There are things going on in this world that require my presence much more than arguing religious issues which are not relevant to anyone but you and me.
ONE point. Fire away.
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