Posted on 09/13/2009 2:54:05 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
by Kent Ponder, Ph.D.
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Many say that religious faith and reason are essentially incompatible -- that theological faith and sensible reason function as largely separate modes of mental and emotional behavior. LDS people, though, very often say that the Mormon faith is unusually reasonable and sensible. Is it? As a test, let's consider the Jaredites and their ocean-going barges, described in Ether of the Book of Mormon. If you've read it, did you do it with the "eye of faith," or with the "eye of reason" (and common sense)? The LDS eye of faith normally reads this account unfazed. But what if we read it with the eye of reason and common sense? What if we read it as if we were jury members evaluating a witness's testimony? Shall we give it a try? First, calmly think about what your own planning would entail if you were told that you and some friends would have to hand-build small, submersible boats in which you and your family would be taking a year-long ocean voyage, accompanied by flocks and herds of animals. Would you want to be confined to the inside of a small submersible boat for a year without planning how to care for and live with flocks and herds of animals on board, and related supplies -- for over eleven months? I don't know how acquainted you are with construction engineering, especially forms of shipbuilding. While I lived in Annapolis, Maryland (teaching at the US Naval Academy), I visited shipbuilding companies and studied the history of various historical shipbuilding techniques. I've also looked into Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki and Ra construction as well as whaling ships at Mystic Seaport, the ex-whaling town in Connecticut, and so on. Ocean-going craft must be carefully designed and strongly built. As we pay close attention to Ether 2 and 6 in the Book of Mormon, we need to keep in mind that the Jaredite ships are described as built following the direct personal instructions of God himself. The LDS church has always taught that the Lord of the Jaredites' Old Testament times was Jehovah, the same deity described as having created the earth and all of the plants and animals, employing all the intelligent planning and management that that necessarily implies. In Ether 2, note the order of procedure: FIRST, for a water voyage prior to the ocean crossing itself, the Lord had instructed Jared and his brother to build boats in which, according to the account, their families and friends "did cross many waters," (2:6) carrying with them "seeds of every kind," flocks ("male and female, of every kind"), "fowls of the air", "swarms of bees," and "fish of the waters." (2:1-3) According to the account, this boat trip was accomplished successfully. NEXT, four years later, the Lord again ordered the men to build similar boats "after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built" (2:16), this time for an ocean crossing of nearly one year's duration. These boats, similar to the ones built four years earlier, are described as "small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water" (2:16), with structural integrity such that they were "exceeding tight," top and bottom, entirely leakproof and air-tight ("tight like unto a dish") (2:17) because they were going to be "many times buried in the depths of the sea" (6:6) by "mountain waves" (2:24) during many violent storms. To be both (a) light ("like a fowl upon the water"), and (b) able to carry flocks and herds with food supplies for a year, the construction would obviously have to be carefully planned and organized because of the known challenges of combining lightness with strength (which still applies: boats, airplanes, bicycles and helmets, race cars, even suitcases, etc.). Following the Lord's specifications, the workmen built each boat with just one tight-fitting door, and no window or other opening. Construction of all eight boats was completed, per the Lord's personal instructions ("I have made the barges according as thou [the Lord] hast directed me." 2:18). NEXT, the Brother of Jared looked at the finished boats and wondered for the first time, Whoa! How will we breathe in these things? Specifically, quoting him: ". . . I have made the barges as thou hast directed me. And behold, O Lord, we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish." (2:19) It was only then, that is, that he noticed that the boats were air-tight. (He also noticed they were totally dark inside: "O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer?" (2:19) Now let's pause to consider: How do the eyes of faith and reason interpret this account? The LDS eye of faith typically accepts the story unfazed. But consider the following "Eye of Reason and Common Sense" questions: 1. Is it reasonable that men smart enough to build such watertight and airtight boats, following divine instructions, would do all the planning, material gathering and construction, and finish all eight before the question of breathing and seeing occurred to any of them? At that time (Tower of Babel period), working with hand tools, such a large project would have required at least months of labor. How could they not have noticed this problem for months? Remember that these shipbuilders were experienced. They had already built very similar people/animal/cargo-carrying boats just four years earlier. 2. Stated most succinctly, how could shipbuilders build eight air-tight boats without noticing that they were air-tight? 3. And what about seeing? Is it sensible that the workmen could have finished all eight interiors without noticing that there was insufficient light to see -- no windows? How could they have worked inside without seeing? When asked about the light problem, note that the Lord answered with a question: "What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces." (2:23) 4. "Dashed in pieces?" Dashable (shatterable) windows were not invented until thousands of years later, by a different civilization. How would Jared's brother have been able to understand the Lord's reply? Why would a deity have said something that would have had no meaning for Jared's brother? 5. How many boats would you have to finish before noticing no air and no light? Could you finish all eight boats before that dawned on you? Especially if you had built several similar boats and traveled in one of them four years earlier? 6. Is it sensible to finish even one before noticing? Do you know any carpenter who would do that? 7. Would the Lord himself not think of the need to breathe and to see, and then wait until the end to be asked about these life-or-death issues? 8. Would a person of common sense build even a mountain cabin, finishing all walls inside and out, before thinking to make a window hole, without thinking about breathing and seeing inside? 9. Is it sensible that all of these shipbuilders, described as previously experienced in carrying flocks and herds of animals inside of boats, waited until the end to realize, Oh, wait! We forgot that our animals will need to breathe in here. And we need to see in order to feed them and clean up. Despite the common-sense requirements of structural integrity of ships that will be on the ocean carrying flocks and herds of animals and their feed for a year, all boats are finished, and then, as an afterthought, holes are hacked into that finished structure, one in the top and one in the bottom (because when it flops upside down in stormy seas, the bottom becomes the top).(2:20) 10. Wouldn't the Lord think that the sensible time to plan and build windows for air and light was during construction, not waiting to hack holes after finishing all boats, as a "whoops!" reaction? Would a sensible deity or human do that? 11. Is this not similar to teaching a work crew how to build automobiles for an extremely long trip without mentioning steering? Then, AFTER all the cars are built, the chief builder asks, "We have built all of the cars exactly as you have directed, but how shall we steer, for the wheels and axles are built so that they do not turn?" And the master planner replies, "Well, you can just make a hole in the dashboard and stick in a steering wheel. Then, when you need to steer, just turn the wheel." 12. Is it fair to ask how this differs from the following? Mormon elders, after following the Lord's exact instructions on building and painting the Celestial Room in the Salt Lake Temple, discovering that they've painted themselves into a remote corner, pray, "We have done as thou hast instructed us, oh Lord, but thy instructions have resulted in our painting ourselves into a corner." What would you think if the answer were, "Behold, ye shall make a hole in the granite temple wall, and after ye have escaped, ye shall stop the hole." Does the following improve the faith/reason problem, or worsen it? "When thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air." (2:20) 13.If you were taking your family on a car trip, would you tell them, "Wait until you notice you're suffering for lack of air, THEN open the window." Isn't it the case that people who need air often don't notice it until too late, because oxygen shortage has caused them to pass out? Don't we read that people who suffocate often don't know it's happening? Pilots at altitude undergoing oxygen deprivation experience the same hazard. Their awareness drops below the level needed to know they lack "air." 14. How is the Jaredite level of planning and knowledge different from that of men described in current news articles, who carelessly suffocate illegal aliens by transporting them in unventilated trucks? (And that problem occurs in just a few days, not a year.) If we ask ourselves whether the following is sensibly reasonable, what is the answer?. "They did lay snares and catch fowls of the air." (Also see 6:4: "fowl that they should carry with them") Birds are the first animals to die from inadequate oxygen, canaries in coal mines being a famous example. 15.How were the birds to notify Jared that they "suffered for air?" For the reasoning person, it gets worse. People and animals obviously keep breathing at night, while sleeping. 16. What if they "suffer for air" while everyone is asleep? Is that a good time to need to "unstop the hole?" 17. Did the Jaredites have "Hole Unstoppers" on guard while everyone else slept? Did the unstopper continually check to be sure that sleeping people and animals, especially birds, were still breathing? How well does the eye of reason and common sense fare with the following problem? " . . . unstop the hole . . . " Also, "thou shalt make a hole in the top and also in the bottom." (2:20) Note that it says the hole, that is, a hole, as in one hole. (The hole at the bottom clearly doesn't count except when the ship flops upside down in high seas.) Now picture in your mind traveling with flocks of flatulent sheep and herds of flatulent goats and cattle) in a boat with ONE functioning air hole. 18. What about air movement for ventilation? 19. How would air enter and exit the same single hole supplying the entire barge/boat? There's a related problem: Air doesn't readily enter a closed space. Why not? Because the space is already full of air -- In the Jaredites' case, warmer, body-heated air that exerts greater-than-outside pressure thus resisting incoming air. People taking car-trips with kids partially open at least two windows for air movement. 20.In these Jaredite boats, reported as designed by the highest divine intelligence, why is there no cross ventilation for three hundred and forty-four days? The eye of reason tries to visualize people and animals struggling to vent their body gases and heat through just one hole. Now let's apply the eye of reason to general animal care: 21. How much does even one goat, sheep or cow eat in a year? These are grazing animal, but they can't graze on the ocean; and they don't eat fish. Their grasses and grains have to be stored on board. A goat eats 2 - 3 pounds/day. Even a pony eats about 8 pounds/day. Let's sensibly use 3 pounds X 344 days. That's 1,032 pounds of feed per animal. That's a lot of bulky weight to lash down to prevent it crashing around when the ships roll, and even flip upside down. 22. How do you fit 1,000 pounds of feed per animal in the small boats, along with people, flocks and herds of animals, and birds? 23. And how about carrying a year's supply of drinking water for each person and animal? They couldn't drink ocean water, and in boats of the type described they couldn't gather significant rain water. How could they load and carry sufficient fresh water? Even the most illiterate people have learned how important ventilation is for food items, especially without refrigeration. People and animals exhale moisture with every breath. The numerous animals couldn't be taken outside to urinate and defecate. Such a year-long, high-moisture, low-ventilation environment breeds bacteria, yeast, fungus and molds, and rots food. 24. So, what about food spoilage? Could it get worse? The voyagers are reported to have sung praises to the Lord day and night. (6:9) 25. How likely does day-and-night singing and praising seem after months of close confinement in small boats with urinating, defecating, flatulent flocks, herds and fowls, with only one air hole per drum-tight boat? Could it get worse? Ether describes heavy seas (" . . . they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them" 6:6). So these boats were crashing around under water, occasionally flipping upside down (thus the need for a hole in the bottom which could be opened as an air hole when the boat flopped over). 26. Can you visualize adults, children, flocks and herds, rocking, tossing and flipping over, traveling that way for a year? Could you ride for 344 days and nights with your children on a boat, repeatedly buried in the depths of the sea with flocks and herds crashing over each other, with urine-soaked "litter box" material spilling into their food as the ship flopped upside down? 27. How would you pour all the urine and feces out of one hole -- for a year? Could reason and common sense be additionally battered? " . . . fierceness of the wind . . . the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind." (6:6 - 8) This testifies to three major factors: (a) wind force, (b) wind constancy, (c) wind direction. "And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water." 28. If the wind was (a) constant, (b) strong, (c) always toward the promised land, how could this force require 344 days? But wait! Could the shape of the boats, the front and back "ends thereof were peaked" (2:17), have presented insufficient flat surface at the back for the wind to blow against, causing the trip to last longer? 29.But then why would an intelligent divine designer choose such an inefficient shape? Could it get worse for the sensible eye of reason?. " . . . terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind." (6:6) 30. Beyond the fact that a tempest is not caused by a fierce wind, but rather IS a fierce wind, why would an intelligent deity think that so much wrenchingly violent motion, even overturning stored goods, animals, their bedding and feed, be an intelligent thing to do? 31. Wouldn't an exhorbitant amount of water in the flocks' and herds' drinking containers be lost as the boats pitched, rolled and flipped over? 32.How did the Jaredites mop and dry this constant sloshing spillage for a year? 33. How could they have carried enough fresh water to offset the constant sloshing spillage? 34. Could you keep your family food and belongings together with that kind of flailing around? Were the people and animals secured by ropes (analogous to seatbelts)? Today, even seatbelted people in slow-speed vehicle rollovers are often seriously injured. But at least their vehicles then stop. Ocean storms, though, last for hours or days. The Jaredites and their animals would have been thrown around (a) many times longer and (b) in a vastly larger interior than in a car rollover. The sliding and falling collisions of people, animals, food and water supplies would often have gone on for hours or days at a time. And if tied down, in a rollover they'd have been left hanging from the ceiling. The food supplies, and especially the water supplies, would have had to be lashed down to prevent lethally crushing slides into people and animals. 35. But then, when the boat turned upside down, how did the people access the food and water, which would now be secured to the ceiling? 36. How would the Jaredites have been able to prevent or deal with orthopedic injuries and concussions as animals and people crashed into each other? 37. When the boats were upside down, did the people and animals just walk around on what had been the ceiling, outside of pens? "And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water. And they did land upon the shore of the promised land." (6:11,12) That is, the account directly implies that all the boats landed at approximately the same time. 38. Is it sensible that after 344 days of such violent tossing and sloshing, the boats would have arrived on essentially the same day? How could eight ocean-going vessels tossed by violent storms maintain near-identical speeds, remaining near each other over such an extremely long time period? 39. Would the "eye of reason" perceive the ocean trip in Ether to be a fitting example of famed LDS general authority and historian Elder B.H. Roberts' notable assessment of the Book of Mormon "as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency " ? (Studies of the Book of Mormon, p. 251) The eye of faith apparently does not perceive the Jaredite ocean voyage to be a nutty fictitious story. 40. How does the eye of sensible reason see it? It seems to me that all 40 of the above questions are honestly, fairly and sensibly stated. |
As for the article itself, I note that the author repeatedly asserts that the Jaredite barges were designed to turn upside down. Does the Book of Mormon ever make such a claim?
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WOW I saw the movie about this
Pirates of the Caribean: The End of the World or something...
The bost did tip upside sown...
Oh, joy...more proof the bom is twoo...
:)
Nonsense. Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon provides a "design" for Noah's ark or the Jaredite barges.
The Bible tells us the overall dimensions of the ark: 300 by 50 by 30 "cubits." (Presumably, a cubit is about 18 inches, but we cannot even be sure of that.) It tells us the vessel had several stories, a door, a window (!), a covering of some sort (Genesis 8:13), and interior rooms. It was sealed inside and out with pitch.
Beyond that, we know very little about the ark. What was the shape of the hull? Dd it have a lean or a bluff bow? What was its draft? Did it have a keel? How was it framed, braced, and planked? What is "gopher wood"? What kinds of tools were used to construct the vessel? How many animals were taken aboard? How much food and water were stored aboard? How was ventilation provided?
Such questions can be multiplied indefinitely. Although attempts have been made to address these issues, at this point all we have is conjecture. Unless and until we find the ark itself—or God provides more information— we cannot know much for certain about Noah's ark.
Our knowledge of the Jaredite barges is similarly incomplete. The Book of Mormon does not provide enough information for us to reconstruct the barges. We are told that they were the "length of a tree"; they were "light upon the water"; they were "tight like unto a dish"; and that their ends were "peaked." Each barge had a single door and two openings in the top and bottom, at least one of which could be stoppered in some way. Although the text refers to steering the barges (Ether 2:19), there is no information about how this was done.
We are told that about 22 persons embarked on eight barges; but we do not know how many or what kinds of animals were taken aboard. Indeed, many of the same questions that might be asked about Noah's ark might also be asked about the Jaredite barges.
Unless and until we find remains of the barges—or God provides more information— we cannot know much for certain about them.
I believe in the Jaredite barges for much the same reason as I believe in Noah's ark: I accept both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as the word of God.
Then why are all of the important covenants and practices of MORMONism NOT found in the BoM?
Heck; MORMONism could just cut that 'book' adrift and none would be the wiser!
Significant difference logo, bom specified a hole in the bottom of the ‘barge’. Boats don’t float very well with such a feature installed.
No, the author brings up almost 40 points for consideration here. So "to be fair" -- re: which points were similar to problems Noah had -- I asked, "OK how many of these near 40 points are ones that have a direct carry-over to problems Noah may have experienced?" The answer was in just 5 of the points this author made (points 21-24, and 33).
If you look at the way this author categorizes these problems, he essentially breaks them down into four prominent groupings.
The other three major problems were:
1. Its designed upside-down ventures (Ether 2:24-25; 6:5-7)
2. Its poor original "God-breathed" design (2:15-19)
3. Its poor original "God-breathed" design left unaddressed before departing
Where does the author address these issues?
1. The author deals with the upside-down questions with points 25-26, 29-31, 34-37. Logo, NONE of these constant upside-down facets were issues according to the ark's design.
2. He deals with poor original design issues with points 1-12. Logo, we don't see Noah going back to God, saying, "Hey, you screwed up on some major life-and-death considerations here." (do we?)
3. He deals with remnant, unaddressed design issues that would have been inherent/prominent for a "tight as a dish" vessel in points 13, 15-20, 27. Logo, NONE of these single-hole issues were anything Noah would have had to deal with.
What were the prominent problems that simple blind faith has trouble surpassing?
1. Having a vessel designed to roll underneath the waves and spend considerable time like "a whale" (Ether 2:24) underneath those waves as the vessel rolls upside down, etc. 9 of points 25-37 shred the notion of such a vessel.
2. Original obvious-as-day design problems of access to air; lack of light; and steering -- all things clearly NOT addressed from the get-go; and weren't addressed by the builders as they went along despite the obviousness of these problems. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith presents his god as a forgetful or neglectful designer -- a bumbling, afterthought Mormon god who was fortunate he had a "consultant" like Jared to catch the divine designer's fatal flaws.
(And, as if Jared was some "brilliant" ship planner, material gathered, 8-vessel constructor in the first place. I mean, how could one work on something for months-on-end, & not notice its superb suffocation & dark-as-night internal features? As the author says, Is it sensible that all of these shipbuilders... waited until the end to realize, Oh, wait! We forgot that our animals will need to breathe in here.)
Re: Noah's ark: How was ventilation provided? Such questions can be multiplied indefinitely...Our knowledge of the Jaredite barges is similarly incomplete. The Book of Mormon does not provide enough information for us to reconstruct the barges. We are told that they were the "length of a tree"; they were "light upon the water"; they were "tight like unto a dish" [Logophile]
3. Ether 6:7: Look, it didn't matter that "no water could hurt them" -- well directly that is -- when the wavy water could indirectly hurt them in all kinds of ways. And just because Genesis doesn't address all ventilation considerations doesn't mean you can't address what the text of Ether 2:20 does say as God's "fix it" response:
when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. (Ether 2:20)
The author asks in points 15 & following:
15. How were the birds to notify Jared that they "suffered for air?" For the reasoning person, it gets worse. People and animals obviously keep breathing at night, while sleeping.
16. What if they "suffer for air" while everyone is asleep? Is that a good time to need to "unstop the hole?"
17. Did the Jaredites have "Hole Unstoppers" on guard while everyone else slept? Did the unstopper continually check to be sure that sleeping people and animals, especially birds, were still breathing? "... unstop the hole..." Also, "thou shalt make a hole in the top and also in the bottom." (2:20) Note that it says the hole, that is, a hole, as in one hole. (The hole at the bottom clearly doesn't count except when the ship flops upside down in high seas.) Now picture in your mind traveling with flocks of flatulent sheep and herds of flatulent goats and cattle) in a boat with ONE functioning air hole.
And, as for the single-hole dish design:
19. How would air enter and exit the same single hole supplying the entire barge/boat? There's a related problem: Air doesn't readily enter a closed space. Why not? Because the space is already full of air -- In the Jaredites' case, warmer, body-heated air that exerts greater-than-outside pressure thus resisting incoming air. People taking car-trips with kids partially open at least two windows for air movement.
27. How would you pour all the urine and feces out of one hole -- for a year? Could reason and common sense be additionally battered?
“Jaredite Barge Contest Winners,” New Era, Jul 1975, 13
The New Era proudly announces the winners of the Design-a-Jaredite-Barge Contest. There were many interesting and beautiful entries from many parts of the United States and from other countries. Although the three winning models shown here do not pretend to show what the Jaredite barges actually looked like, they do show thought and care in design and a firm understanding and reading of the Book of Mormon scriptures that describe the Jaredite barges. We wish to compliment all those who participated and who learned from this experience."
Uh, not really -- at least not the first place winner -- who came to the conclusion upon reading the obvious unfine print in the BoM: “No doubt about it, there were holes in the top and the bottom." [Gee, really? The text plainly says that?]
His next assessment?: Some people suggest two holes were called for because the barges sometimes turned over. In my opinion this would have been catastrophic, especially when you consider that the barge was full of people, food, water, and animals.
OK, let me get this straight. He's just read in the BoM that holes were to placed in the top & bottom of 8 vessels. So who are the lame-brain "let's read something completely different into the text" folks? (But certainly, I could see the motivation for these lame-brainers to want to change the text...I mean, after all, what an amateur shipbuilder's dream! Build vessels with stoppable holes in the bottom!)
So, this kid doesn't seem to stop & think here. I mean, what's the only purpose a vessel could have for a hole in its bottom? Answer? The "bottom" wasn't always "bottom" -- sometimes it pitched & rolled & remained upside down underwater.
It's almost as if he didn't read Ether 2:24-25 and 6:5-7 which describes waves crashing upon the vessels; the vessels acting like a whale in the sea; mentions three times being driven to "the depths" of the sea...all of these are wave actions upon a "tight as a dish" & thereby is actually consistent then with a possible motivation for wanting a hole in the bottom. It's almost like a rolling vessel.
But, I have to give the kid credit for one thing many Lds adults have flunked on: He realized something obvious applicable to such a vessel no matter what (even tho he thought it'd only apply to a 2-hole-in-the-top vessel). And that's this observation re: "turned-over barges": ...the barges sometimes turned over. In my opinion this would have been catastrophic, especially when you consider that the barge was full of people, food, water, and animals.
Yes, sir, exactly, right! (And this was the same conclusions the author GreyFoxx posted in this thread -- see points 25-26, 29-31, and 34-37).
(Sometimes, Lds youth will back up into an obvious conclusion that's escaped so many older generation Mormons. Lds can't have it both ways: They can't on the one hand, try to make the case for a hole in the bottom of such a vessel -- and then pretend the turned "catastrophic" effects upon people, food, water & animals inside didn't play out -- if in fact, that purposeful design came about -- as Ether 2:24-25 & 6:5-7 says it did).
LOL, guess you won’t need those boats afterall.
If the barge is airtight, it will float just fine so long as both holes are not open at the same time.
Alternatively, a barge would float if the lower opening is located within a partial enclosure—a tube or a well—that extends to a level above the waterline. (Google the term "moon pool" to see what I mean.)
Airtight = suffocation
Alternatively, a barge would float if the lower opening is located within a partial enclosure—a tube or a well—that extends to a level above the waterline. (Google the term "moon pool" to see what I mean.)
So now you are trying to convince us that in addition to all the other mythology surrounding the Jaredite barges, they also had airlocks. Didn't anyone ever tell you that when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging LOL.
Not so. It would depend on the enclosed volume of the vessel, the number of humans and animals aboard, and the period of time during which the upper hole is kept stoppered.
So now you are trying to convince us that in addition to all the other mythology surrounding the Jaredite barges, they also had airlocks. Didn't anyone ever tell you that when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging LOL.
I said nothing about airlocks.
Run the numbers. lack of O2 is only one component of the equation, CO2 buildup caused even more problems. O2 concentrations of 19.5% at sea level are IDLH conditions for workers, and it doesn't take much for a air-tight chamber with people and animals to deplete 2% of the oxygen (normal O2 about 22% at sea level
I said nothing about airlocks.
They are of necessity for a moon pool to function within a boat - do your research better.
What numbers? The text provides no data that would allow us to "run the numbers."
They are of necessity for a moon pool to function within a boat - do your research better.
You are mistaken.
Pretty lame.
The volume in Litre (L) in cubic metre (m3)is: 1000L/m3.
21 % of the atmosphere consists of O2 by volume. So, 1000 L of air consists of 0.21 x 1000 L = 210 L of O2.
1 mole of any gas at STP has a volume of 22.4 L. Therefore 210 L of O2 is 210L/22.4L/mole = 9.38 mole.
The mass of 9.38 mole of Oxygen is: 9.38 mole x 32 gram/mole = 300 gram or 0.3 kg.
According to NASA the average person needs 0.84 kg of O2 per day (day and night activity).
So for a room 12 ft wide x 12 ft long x 8 ft ceiling
3.6 m x 3.6 m x 2.4 m = 31.1m3
would last 1 person about 2.6 days, divide that by the total number if more than one. Does not include respiration by animals or other biological activity.
Now consider crossing the pacific ocean, from the article of the thread "Ether describes heavy seas (" . . . they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them" 6:6). So these boats were crashing around under water, occasionally flipping upside down (thus the need for a hole in the bottom which could be opened as an air hole when the boat flopped over)." Pacific storms would keep them bottled up for days - still having problems doing the math?
They are of necessity for a moon pool to function within a boat - do your research better.
You are mistaken.
Google 'moon pools' Logo. You will find that even your best scenario would require the sides of the moon pool to be quite deep ( greater than the draft of the ship by a margin of safety) in order not to sink the boat.
The hole in the bottom of the barge would have been useful (one might say essential) for the disposal of human and animal wastes.
The author of the original article insists repeatedly that the barges must have flipped, flopped, or turned upside down. But the text does not say so. Hence, 13 of the author's 40 numbered questions are based on a dubious premise.
The problem is not the math but the data, or rather the lack of data:
1. You do not know the volume of the vessels.
2. You do not know the types and numbers of animals on board.
3. You do not know how long the air hole had to be stoppered.
4. You do not know how long it took to replenish the air when the hole was unstopped.
So these boats were crashing around under water, occasionally flipping upside down (thus the need for a hole in the bottom which could be opened as an air hole when the boat flopped over)."
How often did they flip upside down?
Google 'moon pools' Logo. You will find that even your best scenario would require the sides of the moon pool to be quite deep ( greater than the draft of the ship by a margin of safety) in order not to sink the boat.
At least we agree that a moon pool does not require an airlock; that is progress.
We also agree that the sides of an airlock-free moon pool (assuming the barges had moon pools) would have to be higher than the draft of the vessel.
So tell me, what was the draft of a barge?
Actually my approach was conservative - man at rest.
1. You do not know the volume of the vessels.
To be sure they had to be big to handle the flocks, people and supplies. One sheep will eat over 1000 lbs of food in a year, let alone the amount of water needed.
2. You do not know the types and numbers of animals on board.
Once again, a lame assertion. Are you making excuses for the bom? Flocks of sheep, live fish, birds as well as other beasts of burden (camels and donkeys). Plus the supplies necessary to get them through one year.
3. You do not know how long the air hole had to be stoppered.
As noted, even short periods during storms will result in rapid depletion of the oxygen - "many times buried in the depths of the sea" (6:6) and "mountain waves" (2:24) Oceanic storms for a drifting craft will last for days - add the stress of increased oxygen consumption of people and animals during these storms (I'm sure being 'buried in the depths of the sea' will get anyones heart racing). And those are the basics. I've noted other biological consumption of oxygen which you apparently fail to comprehend. One of these is aerobic and anaerobic bacteria processing the stored food for the livestock and their waste. Ever been to a stockyard? Take a good wiff the next time. Anaerobic activity creates an even greater hazard - hydrogen sulphide, a heavy gas that is difficult to get out of a confined area without active ventlation - the topic of your next point
4. You do not know how long it took to replenish the air when the hole was unstopped.
To replenish such a vessel, it would require an extremely large hole - and these holes are an after thought in the mormon god's mind from the bom narrative. A hole will only be slightly better than diffusion for oxygen exchange and will do nothing for heavier gasses like H2S and CO2. Don't believe me - next time you go down the street, take a close look a the workers in confined areas beneath manholes. What do they all have? They have a BIG fan and ducting forcing fresh air into that space. A passive 'hole' in the top of an otherwise air tight ship after an expended period will not 'replenish' the air.
How often did they flip upside down?
Apparently often enough for the mormon god to retrofit these barges with two 'openings'
At least we agree that a moon pool does not require an airlock; that is progress. We also agree that the sides of an airlock-free moon pool (assuming the barges had moon pools) would have to be higher than the draft of the vessel. So tell me, what was the draft of a barge?
When one considers the tons of food, supplies, animals and people each would need, common sense would indicate that it would be riding low in the water. If it rode higher in the water it would be prone to tipping over easily (higher center of gravity) But we already see that the mormon god retrofit instructions do not include instruction to add 'sides' to the moon pool. Secondly, absent an airlock mechanism of some kind, being submerged as claimed in the bom, water would come gushing in rather easily (along with interior air exiting).
So build/design us an airtight barge that can carry a herd of sheep, all their provisions for a year (food and water), people to care for the sheep (with food and water for themselves)capable of handling Pacific storms (being sealed for several days), flipped over a couple of times each storm and perhaps you may have a reasonable arguement.
Moreover, your assumptions that the barges were "big" and that they rode "low in the water" seem to be contradicted by the text. According to Ether 2:16, the barges "were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water."
Before trying to prove the Book of Mormon wrong, you might want to look at what it actually says. Allow me to suggest the following for starters:
1. Barge size. Find in the text of the Book of Mormon the dimensions of the barges, their length, beam, draft, displacement, etc. (SI units would be nice, but cubits are OK.)
2. Hole design. Locate a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which gives the size, shape, and precise location of the holes in the tops and bottoms of the barges. While you are at it, see if you can find any information about the means of stoppering the holes.
3. Barge stability. Cite a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which refers to the barges flipping or turning upside down. (It would be helpful if you can find a reference to the number of times the barges flipped.)
4. Animals. Show where the Jaredites are said to have taken donkeys, sheep, or camels with them. Note that "flock" does not necessary imply sheep; birds can also comprise a flock. Likewise, "herd" can refer to any group of mammals. (It would be very helpful if you can cite the species and numbers of animals that were taken aboard.)
By all means, take your time. I'll check back in a few days to see what you have found.
Moreover, your assumptions that the barges were "big" and that they rode "low in the water" seem to be contradicted by the text. According to Ether 2:16, the barges "were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water."
Before trying to prove the Book of Mormon wrong, you might want to look at what it actually says. Allow me to suggest the following for starters:
1. Barge size. Find in the text of the Book of Mormon the dimensions of the barges, their length, beam, draft, displacement, etc. (SI units would be nice, but cubits are OK.)
2. Hole design. Locate a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which gives the size, shape, and precise location of the holes in the tops and bottoms of the barges. While you are at it, see if you can find any information about the means of stoppering the holes.
3. Barge stability. Cite a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which refers to the barges flipping or turning upside down. (It would be helpful if you can find a reference to the number of times the barges flipped.)
4. Animals. Show where the Jaredites are said to have taken donkeys, sheep, or camels with them. Note that "flock" does not necessary imply sheep; birds can also comprise a flock. Likewise, "herd" can refer to any group of mammals. (It would be very helpful if you can cite the species and numbers of animals that were taken aboard.)
By all means, take your time. I'll check back in a few days to see what you have found.
So, you claim to know the size and demand I prove it LOL. Run the numbers Logo. If they were small, how could they carry the livestock and their food and water for a year (1 sheep/goat goes through some 1000 lbs of feed per year). If they are small - as you claim - then they would have even a smaller period of oxygen sustainment when riding out a storm (remember, I provided rough estimates for displacement roughly the size of a house for ONE human at rest). Finally, show me a barge that can contain the tons of supplies and animals the text infers and still ride 'high' on the water. Go ahead and show me that the Jaredite design is feasable using TODAY'S technology. It won't fly (nor will it float either).
Hole design - lol, you already claimed it was a 'moon pool' design, which I pointed out had 2 requirements, dependent upon application, necessary to keep it afloat. From the bom text it is clear the holes were an afterthought of the mormon god (as well as the builders).
Logo, you tout the infallability of the bom on this issue, yet overlook the impossiblity and implausability of their construction. Perhaps you can address the points made in the article too while you are at it.
As for trying to prove the bom wrong, I don't have to try very hard - it does a nice job on its own accomplishing that.
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