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To: Logophile
The problem is not the math but the data, or rather the lack of data:

Actually my approach was conservative - man at rest.

1. You do not know the volume of the vessels.

To be sure they had to be big to handle the flocks, people and supplies. One sheep will eat over 1000 lbs of food in a year, let alone the amount of water needed.

2. You do not know the types and numbers of animals on board.

Once again, a lame assertion. Are you making excuses for the bom? Flocks of sheep, live fish, birds as well as other beasts of burden (camels and donkeys). Plus the supplies necessary to get them through one year.

3. You do not know how long the air hole had to be stoppered.

As noted, even short periods during storms will result in rapid depletion of the oxygen - "many times buried in the depths of the sea" (6:6) and "mountain waves" (2:24) Oceanic storms for a drifting craft will last for days - add the stress of increased oxygen consumption of people and animals during these storms (I'm sure being 'buried in the depths of the sea' will get anyones heart racing). And those are the basics. I've noted other biological consumption of oxygen which you apparently fail to comprehend. One of these is aerobic and anaerobic bacteria processing the stored food for the livestock and their waste. Ever been to a stockyard? Take a good wiff the next time. Anaerobic activity creates an even greater hazard - hydrogen sulphide, a heavy gas that is difficult to get out of a confined area without active ventlation - the topic of your next point

4. You do not know how long it took to replenish the air when the hole was unstopped.

To replenish such a vessel, it would require an extremely large hole - and these holes are an after thought in the mormon god's mind from the bom narrative. A hole will only be slightly better than diffusion for oxygen exchange and will do nothing for heavier gasses like H2S and CO2. Don't believe me - next time you go down the street, take a close look a the workers in confined areas beneath manholes. What do they all have? They have a BIG fan and ducting forcing fresh air into that space. A passive 'hole' in the top of an otherwise air tight ship after an expended period will not 'replenish' the air.

How often did they flip upside down?

Apparently often enough for the mormon god to retrofit these barges with two 'openings'

At least we agree that a moon pool does not require an airlock; that is progress. We also agree that the sides of an airlock-free moon pool (assuming the barges had moon pools) would have to be higher than the draft of the vessel. So tell me, what was the draft of a barge?

When one considers the tons of food, supplies, animals and people each would need, common sense would indicate that it would be riding low in the water. If it rode higher in the water it would be prone to tipping over easily (higher center of gravity) But we already see that the mormon god retrofit instructions do not include instruction to add 'sides' to the moon pool. Secondly, absent an airlock mechanism of some kind, being submerged as claimed in the bom, water would come gushing in rather easily (along with interior air exiting).

So build/design us an airtight barge that can carry a herd of sheep, all their provisions for a year (food and water), people to care for the sheep (with food and water for themselves)capable of handling Pacific storms (being sealed for several days), flipped over a couple of times each storm and perhaps you may have a reasonable arguement.

37 posted on 09/15/2009 7:59:53 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
To repeat: You do not know the volume of a Jaredite barge ("big" will not do), the types and numbers of animals on board, the time the air hole had to be stoppered, or the time required to replenish the air.

Moreover, your assumptions that the barges were "big" and that they rode "low in the water" seem to be contradicted by the text. According to Ether 2:16, the barges "were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water."

Before trying to prove the Book of Mormon wrong, you might want to look at what it actually says. Allow me to suggest the following for starters:

1. Barge size. Find in the text of the Book of Mormon the dimensions of the barges, their length, beam, draft, displacement, etc. (SI units would be nice, but cubits are OK.)

2. Hole design. Locate a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which gives the size, shape, and precise location of the holes in the tops and bottoms of the barges. While you are at it, see if you can find any information about the means of stoppering the holes.

3. Barge stability. Cite a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which refers to the barges flipping or turning upside down. (It would be helpful if you can find a reference to the number of times the barges flipped.)

4. Animals. Show where the Jaredites are said to have taken donkeys, sheep, or camels with them. Note that "flock" does not necessary imply sheep; birds can also comprise a flock. Likewise, "herd" can refer to any group of mammals. (It would be very helpful if you can cite the species and numbers of animals that were taken aboard.)

By all means, take your time. I'll check back in a few days to see what you have found.

38 posted on 09/15/2009 10:38:19 AM PDT by Logophile
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To: Godzilla
To repeat: You do not know the volume of a Jaredite barge ("big" will not do), the types and numbers of animals on board, the time the air hole had to be stoppered, or the time required to replenish the air.

Moreover, your assumptions that the barges were "big" and that they rode "low in the water" seem to be contradicted by the text. According to Ether 2:16, the barges "were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water."

Before trying to prove the Book of Mormon wrong, you might want to look at what it actually says. Allow me to suggest the following for starters:

1. Barge size. Find in the text of the Book of Mormon the dimensions of the barges, their length, beam, draft, displacement, etc. (SI units would be nice, but cubits are OK.)

2. Hole design. Locate a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which gives the size, shape, and precise location of the holes in the tops and bottoms of the barges. While you are at it, see if you can find any information about the means of stoppering the holes.

3. Barge stability. Cite a passage in the text of the Book of Mormon which refers to the barges flipping or turning upside down. (It would be helpful if you can find a reference to the number of times the barges flipped.)

4. Animals. Show where the Jaredites are said to have taken donkeys, sheep, or camels with them. Note that "flock" does not necessary imply sheep; birds can also comprise a flock. Likewise, "herd" can refer to any group of mammals. (It would be very helpful if you can cite the species and numbers of animals that were taken aboard.)

By all means, take your time. I'll check back in a few days to see what you have found.

39 posted on 09/15/2009 10:38:19 AM PDT by Logophile
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