Posted on 07/17/2009 5:37:12 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Well I must say, I had a great time reading the comments, critiques and insults that came in after my last post with its modest attempt to define "atheism". In particular, many self-described atheists took umbrage to my claim that atheism is denial of the proposition that God exists. (Apparently my smarmy attitude was also ripe for verbal assault.)
One of my most spirited opponents drew comparisons between belief in God and unicorns as he/she asked: "do you believe in unicorns? Can you disprove the existence of unicorns?" The idea, presumably, is that belief in unicorns and God are equivalent. Thus, if belief in unicorns is irrational then so is belief in God (bad news for the theist). And if disbelief in unicorns is the rational position for the average person on the street then so is disbelief in God (good news for the atheist).
This is an important comparison to consider, but in doing so I am going to switch from unicorns to Santa Claus since the latter (being a concrete individual rather than a type of thing) is a closer parallel to God. So the question: is belief in Santa Claus like belief in God?
First, let's begin to address the question in the manner of Thomas Aquinas, by giving our opponent as fair a shake as possible:
So here we go. Picture yourself a manager at Walmart interviewing a potential employee to work in the warehouse. "Alfred" seems to be a well-adjusted intelligent twenty-five year old who has solid work experience and references, Thus you are inclined to hire him. Then you notice his Rolex watch and you offer a compliment. "Nice watch Alfred."
"Thanks," he replies, "Santa gave it to me." You pause, wait for the punchline, and then slowly, with growing trepidation, you realize that he is deathly serious.
You swallow nervously as Alfred watches you intently. "Santa?" you ask in a futile attempt to sound nonchalant. A bead of sweat rolls down your brow.
"Yes," Alfred replies. "I was very good last year. Santa loves me, and he watches everything we do. So you can trust me Mr. Manager."
Okay, would you hire Alfred even after he confessed belief in Santa Claus? At the very least wouldn't you be at least be less inclined to hire him in light of that belief? You might concede Alfred's point that believing Santa is watching over him will make him more likely to be honest and hard working. But would that potential positive byproduct of his belief be sufficient to allay your concerns?
With that in mind, let's replay the last exchange:
"Nice watch Alfred."
"Thanks. The Lord provided it as an answer to prayer."
Many people would view the invocation of God as much less threatening or epistemologically questionable than invocation of Santa Claus. Indeed, many would be positively encouraged to hear the invocation of God. But if it appears irrational to ascribe the acquisition of the watch to Santa Claus, why is it not equally irrational to ascribe it to God? In short, what makes the Christian any more rational than Alfred?
well Santa Claus doesn’t have a “Chosen People” like God does the Jews.
Certainly not of the physical body. Anything more than that requires a certain belief which not all have.
“So the answer is that (perhaps) God saved the woman’s life, even with the broken neck, because He knew it would make her stronger spiritally and improve her relationship with Him. Or because she would witness about God’s love from her bed in a stronger way than she ever thought possible and bring more people to Him. We will never know the exact reason in this lifetime. All we know is the relationship. That’s the key. “
This is the standard answer but I just find it inadequate. God permits people to suffer and die in obscurity (billions of them) so we will love him more??? This is an insult to God! A God who is truly God would never do this.
At this moment a huge comet could come crashing into earth and destroy every living thing on the earth. Poof! All gone! There is a caldera under Yellowstone that is 45 miles wide. If it explodes (and it will someday) the USA will be practically wiped off the map. The bubonic plague of the middle ages wiped out about 100 million people. They called out to God, they suffered in agony and they died anyway. The good with the bad.
The fact is most human beings die like flies. God has does nothing to change this. Humans have! It is humans who have improved the quality of life on this planet. I am not saying God is evil or bad, only that if there is a God I don’t pretend to have any idea what God is doing or why God is doing it.
I can tell you the answer - but it will cost you. I don’t mean money, it will really cost you something much, much, more expensive.
Are you ready?
Yes, I believe in God, just God, though I cannot backup that belief with anything substantial. I’ve always wondered what people mean when they say things like...’you just need to believe’...how does one make themselves believe in something that cannot be validated without relying on some other belief? I think our true beliefs come from the way God designed each of us. Like you, I have no idea why and doubt I could understand it anyway...besides, I don’t really have a need to understand why or how, God is.
Just a thought.You say every attempt to explain God is an insult to God yet you claim an all loving being would never allow suffering. Isn’t that trying to explain God?
Oh well, Cronkite was a proclaimed atheist. No More...
LOL! I suppose it is a description of God. But it's not an insulting one. ;o>
If you believe in God ... then death is no big deal. Once you die you go onto eternal life.
As for humans improving the quality of life on the planet, which humans in particular improved civilization — following the one who told them to love each as He has loved us. Was it the Mongols, was it the Romans, or was it the Christians who created Hospitals, gave care to the needy, helped those suffering from plagues, etc...
And catch this — the Christian God Himself suffered to defeat sin. He actually knows what human suffering is like as He had to go through suffering worse than any human will have to go through (not just physical suffering, but spiritual).
Has anyone ever claimed that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are real? I mean, come on — we all know they were invented by adults. We wink and nudge each other when the kids believe that Santa is coming down the chimney.
That’s why the Santa vs. God arguments are silly.
No one nudges and winks when talking about God — people actually believe that they are in communion with the Creator of the Universe.
Well, Jesus said that He was God. No other non-cult religion has that testimony. Plus the amazing expansion of the Christian religion, a religion that was persecuted and didn’t spread through the sword are powerful proofs.
Then you have that pesky resurrection.
Pretty powerful evidence if you ask me.
That’s so true. You cannot make yourself believe or have faith. And if there is a God, God knows if you are faking it or lying to yourself. I can’t lie to myself, I have begun to have serious doubts about what I have been taught about God.
I don't know. I suspect that I will never know, but I've been wrong before.
True story... My Story...
I will never forget the day my mother broke the news to me that there was no Santa Claus.
I still remember the look on her face... I still remember exactly what she was doing, where she was standing, where I was sitting... Almost everything except the exact date.
It was one of those moments in time that gets burned so deeply into memory that you know that it will never leave.
Most specifically, I remember how I reacted, and exactly how I felt on hearing the news. I also remember well the line of thinking that followed, and how it affected over the next several weeks... months... and yes... years.
A friend of mine and I had decided earlier that day to look up the word “Sex” in the dictionary. As we read that definition, new words we hadn’t heard before also appeared... “penis”... “vagina”... After some discussion about the context, we agreed that the words must be referring to our “pee-pees”.
Needless to say, we were appalled! OUR PARENTS DID THAT???... NO WAY!!! Complete shock and disbelief followed...
For we were yet too young to understand, even though we were old enough to read. (1st or 2nd grade I think)
In my horror and disbelief, I decided that I would confront my mother about her “sin”... as if one were to confront a murderer with the “smoking gun” that they used to commit their crime... My evidence against her was the very dictionary we had used earlier to learn what “sex” was.
I quietly walked into the kitchen and sat that dictionary down on kitchen table, already opened to the very page with the incriminating information. My mother was at the sink chopping cucumbers... and it did not take her long to perceive that I was disturbed about something...
“What is wrong?” she asked...
“IS THIS TRUE MOM????!!!!” I replied... pointing angrily at the open page...
Her look of concern almost immediately turned into a look of fear and horror... as she turned her head back away to look out the window and up... as if she didn’t know what to do or say.
After a brief moment of silence that seemed like several minutes, she fessed up... “yes son... it is true... it is how we got you.” I am sure that she followed this statement up with a few others concerning sex and procreation... and I’m sure that her explanation was intended to make me understand that she had done nothing wrong... but my memory fails me concerning exactly what she said because what she decided to do next was an even bigger bombshell... one that I was not expecting... one that I was not prepared for... She had decided that since I was old enough to know what sex was, I was also old enough to understand that there was no Santa Clause... No Easter Bunny... No tooth fairy. She changed the subject on me... because it was now time for me to “Grow up”.
After a couple of minutes of mind numbing confusion, I retrieved my jaw from the floor. My disbelief almost immediately turned into understanding... and then my anger returned... but for a different reason. I almost immediately recognized that much of my enjoyment of Christmas was derived from hope... expectation... anticipation of a mystical loving guest that brings gifts and dreams come true. All of that was gone now. It wasn’t getting the presents... it was the enjoyment of looking forward to Santa’s coming that I would miss the most! My hope in Santa was now gone... as if she had just shot him in the head. I then realized that she could have chosen to carry on the deception. This is what made me angry.
“Why did you tell me that mom???!!... I could have believed in Santa Clause for at least another year or two!!!...
Why have you decided to ruin my Christmas now?!?!
Yes... at that moment, I WANTED to continue believing the lie... because it gave me hope... It was fun believing in Santa Clause, and she had just robbed me of that enjoyment. This was my initial reaction... and it stayed with me for a number of days... at least until I started realizing what had actually been occurring the years prior.
Over time that initial gut reaction of loss and anger festered into a much deeper resentment for the original deception. My parents had actually lied to me about Santa Clause to begin with. I remember contemplating how I was supposed to believe what they told me about God and Jesus if they were willing to lie to me about Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. It is the time in my childhood when I began to start doubting my parents for the first time. I had never been lied to before... and I didn’t like how it felt.
It took me several years to grow out of this...
and when I matured to a point that I realized that everyone lies, and nobody can be trusted completely, I realized that I must be just as guilty.
I think it was my examination of guilt itself and feelings in general that moved me the most... where did it come from? If there is no God, then why do we feel guilty about anything we do? are we not as the animals who act purely out of instinct? Why do so many believe in a God?
And then I had a bicycle accident.
Jaw fractured in three places... (my gums were wired shut to heal)... serious concussion... and LOTS of pain. They say that if I had not immediately jumped up from the wreck and began running as I did (causing the blood to gush out my left ear), that I would surely have died from the brain hemorrhages. I remember waking up with no less than 12 people standing around my hospital bed praying. My mother told me many years later that at one point in the hospital I had actually described perfectly to her the hallways and doctors/nurses outside of my room, even though I had never seen them... that I had described to her my dreams where I had been floating around in the hospital. She was convinced that I had an out of body experience, even though I have absolutely no recollection of that experience today.
It was after that when I started giving God a little more possible credibility... all these adults around me... I should have died... they were praying for me.
So I tried it.
God responded.
I believed.
The difference between God and Santa Clause is that Santa Clause doesn’t personally answer the letters that he never gets... because Santa Clause was a man (Christian btw) and not God... and now dead. Culture (man) turned him into a god of sorts... which he is not.
God is real... I believe in Him because He has given me an abundance of evidence... And not just evidence of His existence, but also His Love... and providence through His Son Jesus Christ.
Your mind is capable of believing ANYTHING you choose to believe. That does not make what you believe the truth.
Man cannot be trusted... so don’t judge God according to the lies of man. Go straight to the source. That’s what His son did for us... He made it possible for anyone to address Him directly... and to be heard directly from.
So before belittling those who believe in God by comparing Him to Santa Clause, you might want to ask yourself why so many do believe...
And then see if you can remember who stole YOUR Santa.
I just figure whatever God wants me to know or believe about Him, I will. Personally, I don’t think He wants us to make as big a deal out of our beliefs, as we do.
Good points rom.
There is just no proof of life after death though. And why isn’t one life enough? I don’t find the idea of one life and then oblivion so bad. After all I was oblivious before I was born. Been there done that....what’s so bad about it? :O>
Good points about Christian compassion but there are a whole lot of nonbelievers who are compassionate. And then there’s Buddah. The Buddah was an atheist of compassion and love. Confucius too. And there are others of course.
I did not look to become a doubter. I was raised Christian. It just evolved that I began to question after I spent thesummer reading about quantum physics.....
Anyway......
INTREP
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