Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity

Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet ^ | 1993 | Walter Martin

[Eagle Eye]

Ping to above.

Comments encouraged.

[rom]

It really does not get any clearer than John 1:1. How exactly would you rationalize John's Gospel away? The entire Gospel reads as a theological essay on why Jesus = God.

Why then are the non-Trinitarians the fringe element of Christianity?

And really, you quote Col 1:15? Do you care to read the REST of that passage?

16 For ​by Him all things were created, ​both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether ​thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He ​is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18 He is also ​head of the body, the church; and He is ​the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


What sect do you belong to btw?

[rom]

Sorry, I too forgot to keep the rest of you in the ping list.

[rom]

I'll throw you another freebie:

1 John:

1 What was ​from the beginning, what we have ​heard, what we have ​seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and ​touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—

It seems like you would have to take this up with the Apostle John. He was dealing with the proto-Gnostic heretics like Cerinthus who believed a lot of these same things about Jesus being a created being.

Polycarp (one of John's disciples) has a great story about this actually. John once fled a bath house when he found out that Cerinthus was inside. He said, "Let us flee, lest the building fall down; for Cerinthus, the enemy of truth is inside!" :). That story always cracks me up.

[rom]

Here's another passage for us to consider. Philippians 2:6

6 who, although He ​existed in the ​form of God, ​did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but ​emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, ​He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 ​For this reason also, God ​highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus ​every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[rom]

And again, if you do quote Col 1:15, please continue to Col 2:9

9 For in Him all the ​fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

[Eagle Eye]

It really does not get any clearer than John 1:1. How exactly would you rationalize John's Gospel away? The entire Gospel reads as a theological essay on why Jesus = God.

No...what you claim that verse says CLEARLY CONTRADICTS what the Bible says...

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

CLEARLY the Bible calls Jesus a man. Clearly it differentiates between God and men, of whom Jesus was one.

Clearly.

Next?

[rom]

No the Bible does not CLEARLY state that. The very person who wrote that book — the Apostle Paul writes in many passages that I have sent you in this thread that Jesus was God.

In fact, that is part of the mystery — he was fully MAN and yet fully GOD.

Just like light (an apt analogy no?) is both wave and particle. Come on. It is not a contradiction. It is a PARADOX.

[Eagle Eye]

9 For in Him all the ​fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

So?

Jesus was never shy about stating that God was in him....just as he also stated that he would be in his followers...and how that Christ in you would be the hope of glory.

So? GOD was in Christ...not Christ was God!!! Sheesh. Next?

[aruanan]

It is not a contradiction. It is a PARADOX.

It's not even a paradox.

[Eagle Eye]

Give us ONE SINGLE verse where is states that “Jesus is God”.

One.

There are many many many verses that testify that he is the Son of God.

Now you are having to say that the Son of God = God.

[rom]

Since you didn't respond to Php 2:6. Here it is again:

6 who, although He ​existed in the ​form of God, ​did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

[Eagle Eye]

In fact, that is part of the mystery — he was fully MAN and yet fully GOD.

No absolutely not...and what gets me irritated about people like you is that you deny what you read and then falsely state what you think something says.

There is no verse that says that Jesus is fully God. Period. Having the fullness of God is not the same as being fully God.

Additionally the mystery is Christ in you the hope of glory instead of what you said. Go read it in collosians.

Now go read I John where it says that Jesus came in the flesh. CAME IN THE FLESH...in the flesh..."in" in greek means in and totally in, not one part out...then John goes on to say that anyone who denies that Jesus was totally flesh is antichrist.

You have put yourself as being anti-Christ based on your denial that Jesus came TOTALLY in the flesh.

[rom]

Light is both not matter (wave) and matter (particle). Yet this is not a contradiction in any way.

Tell me, when verse after verse tells you that He was from the beginning, and that He created all things through Him and for Him, what exactly does that make Him?

And when verse after verse tells you that He forgave sins, and that sins are only for God to forgive. What does that tell you?

You know, better minds than ours have fought this battle on both sides. So, I've give you my point of view, which happens to be mainstream Christianity, and you've given your point of view. Neither of us are going to convince the other.

So I'll wish you a good day, and be off.

[raynearhood]

So, I've give you my point of view, which happens to be mainstream Christianity....

There... fixed it.

You know, better minds than ours have fought this battle on both sides.

So true, so true. Same old heresy, different century.

The Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; 2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; 4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. 5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. 6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. 7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. 8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. 9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. 10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. 11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. 12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. 13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. 14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. 15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; 16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. 17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; 18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. 19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; 20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. 21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. 22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. 23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. 24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. 25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. 26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. 27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. 29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. 31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. 32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. 33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. 34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. 35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. 36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. 37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; 38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; 39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; 40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; 42. and shall give account of their own works. 43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

[Eagle Eye]

equal = Isos....equality is not being identical.

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

So we are to think like Christ thought...

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Note that Paul could have said, 'who being God, fully God and fully man...' but he did not do that!

Who being in the position or appearance of the Almighty thought it not to be stealing to be of similar (isosolese triangles have corners that are equal in measurement but are not identical!) standing with God...and since Christ always obeyed God..he was doing God's will with this.

And we are supposed to have the same mind! Does THAT make us God, too?

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Who exalted WHOM??

God exalted Christ! It does not say that Christ was or is God.

These verses describe attitudes that believers are supposed to emulate!

Christ was of extremely high standing but was humble and served us. We are supposed to think and act the same way.

[Jmouse007]

You said: "show us one single verse"

Ok here are several:

30 "I and the Father are ONE."

31 The Jews picked up stones AGAIN to stone Him.

32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT TO BE GOD." (John 10:31-33)

The Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God and they sought to stone Him a second time for saying this. They had sought to stone Him previously in John 8:56-59 because he declared himself to be God by using the name for Himself that ONLY GOD CAN USE, the EXCLUSIVE NAME OF GOD: "I AM" (See Exodus 3:13-15 below)

13 Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations. (Exodus 3:13-15)

Jesus used the exclusive name of God for Himself and the Jews knew exactly what he had done because they sought to stone him for it because they refuesed to beleive or accept the fact that He is God:

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."

59 THEREFORE they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. (John 8:56-59)

It is so certain that Jesus used the exclusive name of God for Himself that only God can use that the JW’s so called "New World Translation" purposely perverts the English translation of the Greek phrase "ego emi" (I am) to read "I have been". I have studied N.T Greek for many years and I can concur with multitudes of highly qualified Greek scholars who have testified in print to the fact that that It is absolutely impossible to translate ego emi to read "I have been", but that does not matter because this perverted translation supports your denial that Jesus Christ is God. You can not honestly/properly translate ego emi as "I am" because if you do, you are admitting that Jesus claimed to be God because He used the exclusive name of God for HIMSELF.

One more thing; ONLY GOD CAN RECEIVE WORSHIP! After His resurrection Thomas worships Jesus and calls Him His Lord and His God and Jesus DOES NOT correct him or command him to stop worshiping Him, instead of chiding him for believing Jesus is God and worshiping Him, Jesus goes on to pronounce a blessing upon everyone who have not seen Him but who believe on Him:

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:27-31)

Only God is to receive worship:

10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; WORSHIP GOD. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev. 19:10)

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9But he said to me, "Do not do that I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. WORSHIP GOD." (Rev. 22:8-9).

Jesus accepted and received worship as God and did not deny it. He did this because Jesus Christ IS God and told Philip as much when He said that he who has seen Jesus has seen God:

7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me HAS SEEN THE FATHER; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:7-9)

[Eagle Eye]

And I know what God told Jehu to do with the prophits of Baal.

Trinitarians are modern baal worshippers.

[rom]

You are saying something really weird here. That Jesus has equality to God, but that He isn't God. That would make you a polytheist since Jesus is a God as well.

And if you think Christians are Baal worshipers then I wonder why Paul would write:

"so that at the name of Jesus ​​every knee will bow, of ​​those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is ​Lord, to the glory of God the Father"

What sect are you from?

[Eagle Eye]

I said "Give us ONE SINGLE verse where is states that “Jesus is God”."

You did not do that.

You failed because like ALL trinitarians you do not read with understanding. You failed to read my simple direct sentence.

"I and the Father are ONE."

First off, this obviously doesn't say Jesus is God daft man. Second,

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Does this mean that 'they' were God, too? Following your ill-logic....since being one with God made Jesus God, then them being one with Jesus (who is God to you) would make them God, too. Dang that is foolish!