Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity

Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet ^ | 1993 | Walter Martin

[Alex Murphy]

THE HOLY TRINITY Definition:

Within the unity of the One God there are three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and these three share the same Nature and attributes. In effect, the three Persons ARE the one God.

From this concise statement, similarly set forth in many theological texts,2 it is clear that the Christian Church does not believe that "there are three gods in One." Quite to the contrary, we affirm that there is but one God, as Scripture repeatedly asserts (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 43:10, 1 Tim 2:5).

Having defined the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it becomes necessary, secondly, to demonstrate inductively from the Bible that it is true.

To accomplish this, we begin with one basic premise: If it can be shown from Scripture that there are three persons, all of whom are called Jehovah (God), then, since there is only one Jehovah (Isa. 44:6, 48:12), those three Persons are the one God. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.

[Star Traveler]

Well, this should be interesting, because I’ve always wondered how many Jehovah’s Witnesses there are on this forum.

But, considering that they refuse to vote (because it’s against their religion), I would imagine that you won’t find any.

HOWEVER, you’ll get *other cults* who deny the Trinity who will be glad to jump in here (and they do post on this forum)....

[rom]

Does the name of this other cult start with “Mor” and end with “ons”?

[Star Traveler]

LOL...

[SkyDancer]

I have this neat little 3x5 card I carry (folded) so when ever I’m talked to by a JW the first question I ask is “So when did Jehovah-God die?” - puzzled looks, I run them through Revelation (verses on the card that shows Jehovah is Jesus).... “We’ll get back to you on that” ....

[ckilmer]

Here's a pretty good prayer song

[Radix]

The Watchtower cult is completely unworthy of consideration when it comes to fundamentalist debate.

 

Purely a cult and without root in scripture or logic.

 

"The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible."

 

There is a reason that it is misunderstood.....

 

It is completely at odds with Biblical precepts, and it is a notion contrived originally designed to incorporate pagan beliefs with New Testament principles.

 

 

I refer you to Acts chapter 2 verse 38 and the entire book of Acts. I defy you to show a single instance where an Apostle ever baptized a convert under any name remotely resembling the formula that has been invoked by organizations referring to themselves as "Church" over the last 17 centuries. You'll have a tough time meeting that challenge. Happy reading.

 

I realize that it is a waste of time, but every once in a while it makes sense that folks ought to have a different perspective to consider. In this case, the Word itself is your antagonist.

[heartwood]

I don’t think John 5:18 says that Jesus made himself equal with God. It is an accusation by his enemies in that context, perhaps a truthful accusation, but not a scriptural statement of fact.

Paul writes in Philippians 2: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, making the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

KJV in that verse says something like “counted it no robbery” instead, which would seem to reverse the meaning?

[Nosterrex]

For those that studied church history, JW’s are basically Arians. Well, they're actual worse than Arians, but the denial of the equality of the Son with the Father is an Arianian position. Just like the Arians, the JW’s believe that Jesus is the highest created being and did not exist eternally. There was a time when the Son was not. Many of the same arguments and slogans used by the Arians are used by the JW’s. There are not new heresies, just the history that we forgot.

[Nosterrex]

For those that studied church history, JW’s are basically Arians. Well, they're actual worse than Arians, but the denial of the equality of the Son with the Father is an Arianian position. Just like the Arians, the JW’s believe that Jesus is the highest created being and did not exist eternally. There was a time when the Son was not. Many of the same arguments and slogans used by the Arians are used by the JW’s. There are not new heresies, just the history that we forgot.

[rom]

Are you talking about Matthew 28:19?

[raynearhood]

THE HOLY TRINITY Definition:....

THE HOLY TRINITY: A better definition -

There is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

excerpted from the Athanasian Creed.

[guitarplayer1953]

God has to live by His rules that He has set up for man in this I mean that in the law that it takes three to bare witness for or against a person and in that the Father has born witness of the Son and the Holy Spirit has born witness of the Son and the Son has born witness of both the Father and the Holy Spirit. It is a circular witness so to say. It goes back the the plurality of Gen where it says let us (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) create man in our image.

[Lee N. Field]

Does the name of this other cult start with “Mor” and end with “ons”?

The most vocal of FR's antitrinitarians tend to be Sabbatarian, judaizing and legalistic. Neo-Ebionites. As a diagnostic indicator, ask them about the council of Nicea. Heck, you're apt to get a ranting screed about Nicea without even asking.

The Roman Catholics are closer to orthodox than they are, by a long shot.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The most vocal of FR’s antitrinitarians tend to be Sabbatarian, judaizing and legalistic. Neo-Ebionites. As a diagnostic indicator, ask them about the council of Nicea. Heck, you’re apt to get a ranting screed about Nicea without even asking.”

Sir, you and I are - at least on this point - on exactly the same page. The judaizing on the part of some Freepers is bizarre and anachronistic.

[uptoolate]

Only God is good. Only God is eternal. Only God could then die to pay the eternal punishment for the sins of more than one person.

IOW. Without Jesus being God, there is no sacrifice for sins.

[Ezekiel]

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[Eagle Eye]

In effect, the three Persons ARE the one God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Anyone saying that God is three or that there are multiple incarnations of God or that Jesus is God are all mistaken...and possibly idolators.

Sorry, no debate today. You're wrong and the Bible is right. And since the Bible is right, I believe it and side with it.

[rom]

This is a fun game actually.

Genesis 1:26
Let us make man in OUR image.

Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:56
“​Your father Abraham ​rejoiced ​to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Mark 2:7
“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; ​who can forgive sins ​but God alone?”

[Eagle Eye]

Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Here we have the juxtaposition of two sets straight forward, clear, easy to understand verses that need zero interpretation or interpolation with a posting of verses that are, at best, indirect and ambiguous.

Those are verses that say what you want them to say, but if you use them to support the theory of a trinitarian god then they have to violate clear concise verses.

Bottom line is that with true research one may start off with a hypothesis but then one must evaluate that hypothesis against the collected evidence or data. If the data supports the hypothesis, fine you have proved it assuming that your results can be replicated by others.

However, if the evidence does not support the hypothesis, then it is dishonest to twist the data and still claim that the hypothesis is intact.

Or you can look at it this way: There are essentially two models of how we understand the portray of God. One is as described in the posted article and the other is of there being a single God who is a being of one who has a single only-begotten Son named Jesus Christ and then there is God's gift to man, given via Jesus of Holy Spirit.

With the first you have to deal with many many contradictions.

With the second you have o deal with isolated cases that are resolved thru clearer translations or understanding remote context.

One model works and the other one doesnt.

Yours does not work; it has severe contradictions.