Posted on 05/01/2009 10:31:49 PM PDT by Salvation
Orthodox don't. Last time I checked, it's "Trinity one in essence and undivided." Very carefully chosen words.
If each "person" of the Holy Trinity is mentioned, the term used is hypostasis, which does not mean "persona" (as in Vulgate tranlastion, a "mask"), nor does it mean a human person. Hypostasis is substantial reality, an essence, not a person.
\-fist\ nounFaith and reason, the good blend.
You know what’s sad? You hang around Pepsicolians long enough and you’re no longer surprised. Just depressed.
Well thanks for asking...
10. I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church for the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome,
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
As you can see, we are warned against following Peter, or any of his supposed apostolic heirs...
And of course everyone knows Peter would never let a man bow down to him, to pay him reverence...
That should throw up very large 'danger' signs to you guys that follow and are obedient to a pope...Especially one who claims to be a descendant of one of the apostles...
3. I also profess that there are truly and properly seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all for every one;
Sorry...Jesus became the ONE sacrifice FOR US so we don't need sacraments...We can do nothing...Jesus did it all...
5. I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead;
God never asked you for a sacrifice...In fact, a sacrifice by Catholics or anyone would be an abomination to God...The only sacrifice God wants is a sacrifice of thanksgiving...Be thankful for what He has done...
God already provided the 'Sacrifice', His only Son...What can you do to top that??? You going to offer His Son again??? Or continually offer His Son???
You can't offer the Son of God to God for a sacrifice...God already offered His Son for a sacrifice for YOU...
And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.
Apparently that depends on what the definition of what evil is, eh, or what is, is...
You can claim you can sin every day, all day long but your sins aren't bad sins...
That IS a sin...It's the sin of willful delusion...
This true Catholic faith, without which no one can be saved,
And there's the biggest delusion of all...More than half of your church voted in a pro child killer as president...This is God's church??? Not the one I read about in the scripture...
Latin version
- Credo in unum Deum,
- Patrem omnipoténtem,
- Factórem cæli et terræ,
- Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
- Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
- Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
- Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
- Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
- Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
- Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
- Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
- Descéndit de cælis.
- Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
- Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
- Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
- Passus, et sepúltus est,
- Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
- Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
- Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
- Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
- Cuius regni non erit finis.
- Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
- Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
- Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
- Qui locútus est per prophétas.
- Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
- Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
- Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
- Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.[27]
The Latin text adds "Deum de Deo" and "Filioque" to the Greek.
[27]Missale Romanum
I guess I shouldn't read any of his epistles any more..
" Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.
Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων· φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο. Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα. Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα. Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς. Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός. Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.
Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν.
Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.
Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν. Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος.
Ἀμήν."
Its worth noting that even we don't recite it precisely as the Councils dogmatized it. In the proceedings of the Councils, it opens with "Πιστεύομεν", We believe, instead of "Πιστεύω", I believe. The dogmatic Trinitarian definition starts at the first word, "Πιστεύω", and extends through "τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν", Who spoke by the prophets. Every time I look at these words, I am struck that these are precisely the words used by the Council Fathers almost 700 years ago, written in the very language they used.
You mean 1700 years.
The new English translation will restore “I believe...”; presently, in Novus Ordo we use the plural form.
Of course you should...But you should put equal weight on all the other epistles as well...
If Peter was the first pope, Paul would not have pointed out that you not follow Peter to the exclusion of the others...
“You mean 1700 years.”
Indeed I do, Alex! :)
My personal favorite is the twisted pretzel - the kids in catechesis love that lesson because they get to consume it ;-)
The Roman Missal is not the original text of the Latin version of the Nicene Creed.
The Nicene Creed (more correctly the Niceno-Constantinoplean Creed of 381) is the revised version of the original Nicene Creed of 321 made by the second Ecumenical Council (and therefore valid and binding to the entire Church), specifically prohibiting any changes to its teaching.
The whole Church, both east and west, agreed to this Creed and accepted it as infallible inspired text under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, i.e. a dogma. As such it is not subject to change or readaction.
The Creed is not a statement; it is a dogmatic proclamation of what the whole Church believes in, a symbol of Christian faith.
The actual ecumenical recognition of the Creed did not occur until the 4th Ecumenical Council (of Chalcedon) in 451, but all subsequent councils have been recognized by the whole Church immediately or retroactively as being fully ecumenical and infallible.
For a more serious understanding of the issue consult serious sources
If anyone has the oldest original Latin version of the Creed please post it.
It is, as it has been, the "Σύμβολον τῆς Πίστεως". "If anyone has the oldest original Latin version of the Creed please post it." I'll bet there's no "filioque" in it! :) I do wonder about the "Deum de Deo". Where does it come from? As we can see, its not in the Greek (not that its wrong).
Iscool:
I know you and I have been in threads before, and I have asked you this question before, and I don’t think you have ever answered. Just what Christian Tradition/church do you belong to. The point of the thread, at least my take on it, was “What is the point of Creeds” and while you have posted some polemics about Catholicism, a friendly suggestion to you would be respond to the topic, which is the Creed. Others here, who are not Catholic, have done a good job on that point, including some of the Protestant Posters in the the thread.
The Creed is a dogmatic statement of faith and clarifies the disputes about the who Christ is [Christological questions] and defines the Holy Trinity. Thus, for Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, the Creeds are part of Apostolic Tradition, as is Sacred Scripture.
So what is your view of the Creed, which is the topic of the thread, and your particular church tradition’s view of it?
Thank goodness. I have one friend who absolutely hates the “We believe—”.
The Nicene Creed to be specific, and it's my understanding that it was Charlemagne who pushed for its inclusion.
The only creed at my church is the Gospel as found in the scriptures...
I see where a creed can be useful to identify what a specific church believes and teaches...Especially when talking to someone not from your church...
I for one wouldn’t attend a church that claimed the church was Catholic...They would have to change the word to universal...
I have attended churches where the apostles’s creed was recited...
I feel that if a person has to recite the church’s creed on a daily or weekly basis to remind themselves where they are or what they are, their Christianity is weak and in trouble at the least...
I don’t need to remind myself of my Christianity by repeating a creed...
Perhaps reciting a creed is is like giving an oath to a church...I don’t need to do that either...God already knows what’s in my heart...
“I don’t need to remind myself of my Christianity by repeating a creed...”
I’m happy to hear this, as I am sure your fellow Freepers are. Can you give us a cogent explanation or definition of the Trinity, I, without using the dogmatic symbol of The Faith contained in the Nicene Creed? Am I assuming too much, as you profess that the only Creed at your Church is as found the “scriptures”, that you are a Trinitarian Christian? If not, perhaps you could give us a “scriptural” explanation of the Trinity, hmmmm? On the other hand, if, of course, you deny the Trinity, then I wouldn’t expect you to try. :)
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