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What’s the Point of Creeds?
CERC ^ | 1988 | Peter Kreeft

Posted on 05/01/2009 10:31:49 PM PDT by Salvation

What’s the Point of Creeds?

PETER KREEFT

I remember vividly how deeply moved I was as a young Protestant to hear how one of the Catholic martyrs died...


Peter Kreeft

I remember vividly how deeply moved I was as a young Protestant to hear how one of the Catholic martyrs died: scratching in the sand with his own blood the words of the creed, “Credo ....”( “I believe”).

My heart was moved, but my head did not yet understand. What do these Catholics see in their creeds anyway? How can a set of words be worth dying for? Why have wars been fought over a word? What's the point of creeds?

Then I read Dorothy Sayers' little masterpiece Creed or Chaos?, and I was answered.

The question can be answered by remembering another question, the one Pilate asked Christ in another life-or-death situation: “What is truth?”

And that is the point of the creeds: truth. In fact, Primal Truth, the truth about God. That is why the words of the Creed are sacred words. Just as God's material houses are sacred, so are his verbal houses. Of course God is no more confined to words, even the sacred words of creeds, than he is confined to the sacred buildings of tent or temple, church or cathedral. But both are holy, set apart, sacred. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. “

Faith has two dimensions: the objective and the subjective. Creeds express these two dimensions: “I believe in God. “ There is an I, a believing subject, and there is God, the object of belief. There is the psychology of believing, which is something in us, and there is the theology of belief, which is the Truth believed. There is the eye, and there is the light. And woe to him who mistakes the one for the other.

When the Church formulated her creeds, humanity was more interested in the light than in the eye. God providentially arranged for the great creeds of the Church to be formulated in ages that cared passionately about objective truth. By modern standards, they ignored the subjective, psychological dimension of faith.

But we moderns fall into the opposite and far worse extreme: we are so interested in the subject that we often forget or even scorn the object. Psychology has become our new religion, as Paul Vitz and Kirk Kilpatrick have both so brilliantly shown.

Yet it's the object, not the subjective act, of faith that makes the creeds sacred. They are sacred because Truth is sacred, not because believing is sacred. Creeds do not say merely what we believe, but what is. Creeds wake us from our dreams and prejudices into objective reality. Creeds do not confine us in little cages, as the modern world thinks; creeds free us into the outdoors, into the real world where the winds of heaven whip around our heads.

What is the object, the Truth? Saint Thomas says that the primary object of faith is not words and statements but God himself. “We believe in God.” Further, as Christians we know God most fully in Christ, God incarnate, and as Catholics we know Christ through Holy Mother Church and her creeds.

When human reason raved, in the Arian heresy, that Christ could not possibly be both fully human and fully divine, Athanasius stood against the world; today we know Christ as he really is because of Athanasius and his creed.

When contemporary forms of the same heresy water down the strong meat” of Christ, the Church again braves the media, the mouth of the world, and calmly thunders the full truth about Christ. True, it is Christ rather than words that is the primary object of the Christian's faith, but what Christ? Here words are crucial.

Two extremes must be avoided: intellectualism and anti-intellectualism, worshipping the words and scorning the words. If the ancient mind tended to the former extreme, the modern mind certainly tends to the latter. Both errors are deadly.

Intellectualism misses the core of faith, both objectively and subjectively. Objectively, the core of faith is God, who is a Person, not a concept. Subjectively, the core of faith is the will, not the intellect. Though informed by the intellect, it is the will that freely chooses to believe.

Faith is not the relation between an intellect and an idea, but the relation between an I and a Thou. That is why faith makes the difference between heaven and hell. God does not send you to hell for flunking his theology exam but for willingly divorcing from him.

Anti-intellectualism also misses the core of faith, both objectively and subjectively. Objectively, because its faith has no object. It calls faith an experience (“the faith experience”) — a term never used by our Lord, Scripture, the creeds, or the popes. Modern people are constantly saying, “Have faith!” But faith in what or whom? They often mean “have faith in faith. “ But faith in faith in what?

Anti-intellectualism is a modern reaction against the modern narrowing of reason to scientific reason. When the ancients and medievals called man a “rational animal”, they did not mean a computerized camera mounted in an ape. They meant by “reason” understanding, wisdom, insight, and conscience as well as logical calculation.

Modern thinkers often forget this dimension of man and think only of reasoning (as in calculating) and feeling. And because they see that faith is not a matter of reasoning, they conclude that it must be a matter of feeling. Thus “I believe” comes to mean “I feel and creeds simply have no place. Faith becomes a “leap” in the dark instead of a leap in the light.

Many of the Church's greatest saints have been doctors of the Church, theologians, philosophers, intellectuals: Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Bonaventure. Anti-intellectuals like Tatian and Tertullian and Luther (who called reason “the devil's whore”) often die excommunicated, as heretics.

The Church — repeating what Saint Paul said in Romans 1: 19-20 — even teaches as a matter of faith that God's existence can be known by reason, independent of faith!

The Catholic ideal is the complete person, with a cool head and a warm heart, a hard head and a soft heart. The mere intellectual has a cool heart; the anti-intellectual has a hot head. The intellectual has a hard heart, the anti-intellectual has a soft head. The Church puts the severed parts in the right order because the Church has the blueprint: Christ (Eph 4:13). The Church has always had a conservative head and a liberal heart, and the world has never understood her, just as it never understood Christ.

Creeds are to the head what good works are to the heart: creeds express truth, the head's food, as good works express love, the heart's food. Both are sacred.

If there is any doubt about the need for creeds, it can be settled by fact: the fact that the Church established by Christ, the Church Christ promised to “guide into all truth”, has in fact formulated and taught creeds.

The first bishops, the apostles, formulated the Church's first, shortest, and most important creed, the Apostles' Creed. Whether the apostles literally wrote it, as tradition says, or whether it was written by their disciples to preserve the apostles' teaching, in either case it is the teaching of the apostles. When we recite this creed we speak in unison with them.

There is a strange notion abroad that creeds oppress, repress, or suppress people. That is like saying that light or food is repressive. The practical purpose of the creeds is truth, and truth is light and food for the soul.

Each of the Church's creeds was written in response to a heresy, to combat it not by force but by truth, as light combats darkness. Creeds are “truth in labeling”. Those who disbelieve in truth or scorn it, or who disbelieve in our ability to know it, see creeds as power plays.

The media's hysterical rhetoric about the pope's labeling Hans Kung's theology as non-Catholic theology is a good example of the world's utter confusion here. The media conjured up visions of the return of the Inquisition simply because the pope said, in effect, that Kung's teachings about Christ should not be confused with the Church's teachings about Christ. But this reaction should be expected if we remember the words of Christ himself (read Jn 3:17-21 prayerfully).

The most important creeds were those formulated by the Church's ecumenical (universal) councils in response to the most important heresies, the heresies about Christ; and of these the two most important were Chalcedon and Nicaea. (The Nicene Creed is the one we recite each Sunday at Mass.) The Church's most recent council, Vatican II, formulated no new creeds and no new doctrines but applied the old ones to new needs and situations.

The pope called an extraordinary synod of bishops in 1985 in part to clarify Catholic confusion concerning Vatican II. Anyone who would take the trouble to read the actual documents (which are much, much longer than creeds) would see how traditional they are. The “spirit of Vatican II” conjured by the media and some theologians is a phantom, a ghostlike half-person, with the fatal split between head and heart, creed and deed, theology and social action, love of God and love of man, eternal principles and updated applications.

But the pope is a bridge builder, a pontifex; he will patch what the world has torn. And the blueprint he will follow in doing this will be the historic, never-abandoned creeds of the Church of Christ.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Kreeft, Peter. “What's the Point of Creeds?” Chapter 17 in Fundamentals of the Faith. (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), 107-111.

Reprinted by permission of Ignatius Press. All rights reserved. Fundamentals of the Faith - ISBN 0-89870-202-X.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; creeds
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To: Salvation; Kolokotronis
So, how to you explain the Trinity without saying “Three persons in one God?" Three ‘beings’ in one God?

Orthodox don't. Last time I checked, it's "Trinity one in essence and undivided." Very carefully chosen words.

If each "person" of the Holy Trinity is mentioned, the term used is hypostasis, which does not mean "persona" (as in Vulgate tranlastion, a "mask"), nor does it mean a human person. Hypostasis is substantial reality, an essence, not a person.

41 posted on 05/02/2009 10:38:39 AM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Kolokotronis
You got me there. Had to look it up.

anthropomorphism

Main Entry:
an·thro·po·mor·phism 
          Listen to the pronunciation of anthropomorphism
Pronunciation:
\-ˌfi-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1753
: an interpretation of what is not human or personal in terms of human or personal characteristics : humanization
an·thro·po·mor·phist 
          Listen to the pronunciation of anthropomorphist \-fist\ noun

42 posted on 05/02/2009 10:42:17 AM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Faith and reason, the good blend.


43 posted on 05/02/2009 11:45:05 AM PDT by bboop (obama, little o, not a Real God)
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To: Salvation

You know what’s sad? You hang around Pepsicolians long enough and you’re no longer surprised. Just depressed.


44 posted on 05/02/2009 11:52:47 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: JEHUE; magisterium
"The Catholic creed is why “ The Catholics “ were not allowed to write our constitution... "


Daniel Carroll a Signer of the Articles of the Confederation/ U.S.
Constitution and U.S. Representative in the First Federal
Congress (1789-179)


Charles Carroll a Signer of the Declaration of Independence and a
Senator in the First U.S. Federal Congress (1789-1791)


Thomas Fitzsimons a Signer of the U.S. Constitution and U.S.
Representative in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)

45 posted on 05/02/2009 11:53:18 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Salvation
Comments?

Well thanks for asking...

10. I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church for the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome,

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

As you can see, we are warned against following Peter, or any of his supposed apostolic heirs...

And of course everyone knows Peter would never let a man bow down to him, to pay him reverence...

That should throw up very large 'danger' signs to you guys that follow and are obedient to a pope...Especially one who claims to be a descendant of one of the apostles...

3. I also profess that there are truly and properly seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all for every one;

Sorry...Jesus became the ONE sacrifice FOR US so we don't need sacraments...We can do nothing...Jesus did it all...

5. I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead;

God never asked you for a sacrifice...In fact, a sacrifice by Catholics or anyone would be an abomination to God...The only sacrifice God wants is a sacrifice of thanksgiving...Be thankful for what He has done...

God already provided the 'Sacrifice', His only Son...What can you do to top that??? You going to offer His Son again??? Or continually offer His Son???

You can't offer the Son of God to God for a sacrifice...God already offered His Son for a sacrifice for YOU...

And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

Apparently that depends on what the definition of what evil is, eh, or what is, is...

You can claim you can sin every day, all day long but your sins aren't bad sins...

That IS a sin...It's the sin of willful delusion...

This true Catholic faith, without which no one can be saved,

And there's the biggest delusion of all...More than half of your church voted in a pro child killer as president...This is God's church??? Not the one I read about in the scripture...

46 posted on 05/02/2009 12:30:02 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Salvation; kosta50; AnAmericanMother

Latin version

Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
Factórem cæli et terræ,
Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
Descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
Passus, et sepúltus est,
Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
Cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
Qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.[27]

The Latin text adds "Deum de Deo" and "Filioque" to the Greek.

[27]Missale Romanum

Wikipedia


47 posted on 05/02/2009 12:38:26 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Iscool; Salvation
"As you can see, we are warned against following Peter, or any of his supposed apostolic heirs..."

I guess I shouldn't read any of his epistles any more..

48 posted on 05/02/2009 1:11:43 PM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: annalex; Salvation; kosta50; AnAmericanMother
And here it is in the original:

" Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων· φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο. Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα. Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα. Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς. Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός. Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν.

Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.

Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν. Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος.

Ἀμήν."

Its worth noting that even we don't recite it precisely as the Councils dogmatized it. In the proceedings of the Councils, it opens with "Πιστεύομεν", We believe, instead of "Πιστεύω", I believe. The dogmatic Trinitarian definition starts at the first word, "Πιστεύω", and extends through "τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν", Who spoke by the prophets. Every time I look at these words, I am struck that these are precisely the words used by the Council Fathers almost 700 years ago, written in the very language they used.

49 posted on 05/02/2009 1:39:26 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Salvation; kosta50; AnAmericanMother

You mean 1700 years.

The new English translation will restore “I believe...”; presently, in Novus Ordo we use the plural form.


50 posted on 05/02/2009 2:11:23 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: GonzoII
I guess I shouldn't read any of his epistles any more..

Of course you should...But you should put equal weight on all the other epistles as well...

If Peter was the first pope, Paul would not have pointed out that you not follow Peter to the exclusion of the others...

51 posted on 05/02/2009 2:24:48 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: annalex

“You mean 1700 years.”

Indeed I do, Alex! :)


52 posted on 05/02/2009 2:39:29 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Salvation
St. Patrick’s shamrock is pretty good, too!

My personal favorite is the twisted pretzel - the kids in catechesis love that lesson because they get to consume it ;-)

53 posted on 05/02/2009 2:58:19 PM PDT by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: annalex; Salvation; AnAmericanMother
Missale Romanum

The Roman Missal is not the original text of the Latin version of the Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed (more correctly the Niceno-Constantinoplean Creed of 381) is the revised version of the original Nicene Creed of 321 made by the second Ecumenical Council (and therefore valid and binding to the entire Church), specifically prohibiting any changes to its teaching.

The whole Church, both east and west, agreed to this Creed and accepted it as infallible inspired text under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, i.e. a dogma. As such it is not subject to change or readaction.

The Creed is not a statement; it is a dogmatic proclamation of what the whole Church believes in, a symbol of Christian faith.

The actual ecumenical recognition of the Creed did not occur until the 4th Ecumenical Council (of Chalcedon) in 451, but all subsequent councils have been recognized by the whole Church immediately or retroactively as being fully ecumenical and infallible.

For a more serious understanding of the issue consult serious sources

If anyone has the oldest original Latin version of the Creed please post it.

54 posted on 05/02/2009 3:18:31 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: kosta50; annalex; Salvation; AnAmericanMother
"The Creed is not a statement; it is a dogmatic proclamation of what the whole Church believes in, a symbol of Christian faith."

It is, as it has been, the "Σύμβολον τῆς Πίστεως". "If anyone has the oldest original Latin version of the Creed please post it." I'll bet there's no "filioque" in it! :) I do wonder about the "Deum de Deo". Where does it come from? As we can see, its not in the Greek (not that its wrong).

55 posted on 05/02/2009 3:53:37 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Iscool

Iscool:

I know you and I have been in threads before, and I have asked you this question before, and I don’t think you have ever answered. Just what Christian Tradition/church do you belong to. The point of the thread, at least my take on it, was “What is the point of Creeds” and while you have posted some polemics about Catholicism, a friendly suggestion to you would be respond to the topic, which is the Creed. Others here, who are not Catholic, have done a good job on that point, including some of the Protestant Posters in the the thread.

The Creed is a dogmatic statement of faith and clarifies the disputes about the who Christ is [Christological questions] and defines the Holy Trinity. Thus, for Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, the Creeds are part of Apostolic Tradition, as is Sacred Scripture.

So what is your view of the Creed, which is the topic of the thread, and your particular church tradition’s view of it?


56 posted on 05/02/2009 4:19:17 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: annalex

Thank goodness. I have one friend who absolutely hates the “We believe—”.


57 posted on 05/02/2009 4:21:19 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Kolokotronis
If anyone has the oldest original Latin version of the Creed please post it." I'll bet there's no "filioque" in it!

The Nicene Creed to be specific, and it's my understanding that it was Charlemagne who pushed for its inclusion.

58 posted on 05/02/2009 5:25:27 PM PDT by Desdemona (Tolerance of grave evil is NOT a Christian virtue. http://www.thekingsmen.us/)
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To: CTrent1564

The only creed at my church is the Gospel as found in the scriptures...

I see where a creed can be useful to identify what a specific church believes and teaches...Especially when talking to someone not from your church...

I for one wouldn’t attend a church that claimed the church was Catholic...They would have to change the word to universal...

I have attended churches where the apostles’s creed was recited...

I feel that if a person has to recite the church’s creed on a daily or weekly basis to remind themselves where they are or what they are, their Christianity is weak and in trouble at the least...

I don’t need to remind myself of my Christianity by repeating a creed...

Perhaps reciting a creed is is like giving an oath to a church...I don’t need to do that either...God already knows what’s in my heart...


59 posted on 05/02/2009 5:56:15 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool; CTrent1564; kosta50; NYer; annalex; Desdemona; Salvation

“I don’t need to remind myself of my Christianity by repeating a creed...”

I’m happy to hear this, as I am sure your fellow Freepers are. Can you give us a cogent explanation or definition of the Trinity, I, without using the dogmatic symbol of The Faith contained in the Nicene Creed? Am I assuming too much, as you profess that the only Creed at your Church is as found the “scriptures”, that you are a Trinitarian Christian? If not, perhaps you could give us a “scriptural” explanation of the Trinity, hmmmm? On the other hand, if, of course, you deny the Trinity, then I wouldn’t expect you to try. :)


60 posted on 05/02/2009 6:22:54 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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