Old Calvinism is Now the New Calvinism

American Vision ^ | March 23, 2009 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

“Calvinism is back,” so says David Van Biema in the March 22, 2009 issue of Time magazine. Calvinism is listed as one of “10 ideas changing the world Right now.” It’s third on the list. When most people hear the word “Calvinism,” they bite down only on the gristle of predestination and then spit out the whole piece of meat. There is much more to Calvinism that is obscured by the misapplied aversion to particular redemption. As a student at Reformed Theological Seminary in the 1970s, I was taught that certain cultural applications flowed from a consistent application of Calvinism. Calvinism is synonymous with a comprehensive biblical world-and-life view. Simply put, I was told that the Bible applies to every area of life. To be a Calvinist is to make biblical application to issues beyond personal salvation (Heb. 5:11–14).

[Ping-Pong]

In the context of Romans 9-11 Paul is differenciating the people of his birth from the Gentiles. You are badly distorting the text to say otherwise.

Isn't Paul telling us that all believers are one...the body of Christ?

[topcat54]

We were talking about the purpose of Christ and you have brought in the mystery of the church.

Actually, we were talking about Christ and His promises, one of which was to build up a people from all the nations. It’s called the Church, and it is composed of both Jews and gentiles, the spiritual children of Abraham. This was foretold by God in the Old Testament when He promised to Abraham that he would be a father of many nations (Gen. 17:4; Rom. 4:16-18). “Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.” This is the Church.

Of course the Jews of Jesus day did not appreciate the fact that Abraham was also the father of gentiles according to the promise. They boasted in their ethnicity. "Abraham is our father" (John 8:39). But Abraham believed while he was still uncircumcised, indicating the true nature of righteous and the universal aspect of God’s holy people.

But Ryrie, et al say that this was unknown in the Old Testament, not simply concealed. I don’t think I’m the one confusing anything since I do not subscribe to The System®.

[topcat54]

In the context of Romans 9-11 Paul is differenciating the people of his birth from the Gentiles. You are badly distorting the text to say otherwise.

Only for the purpose of indicating the true nature of the body of believers, the holy nation, Christ’s Church. The remnant of Israel together with the wild branches from the nations makes up the one new man. The ethnic distinctions are passed away, like the old covenant. “There is neither Jew nor Greek.”

Simple question: Will Adam and Abraham and Moses and David be numbered among “those who sleep in Jesus” and are quickened at Christ’s appearing ala 1 Thess. 4:13ff?

[enat]

“Simple question: Will Adam and Abraham and Moses and David be numbered among “those who sleep in Jesus” and are quickened at Christ’s appearing ala 1 Thess. 4:13ff?”

No, they are quickened at the second coming after the tribulation period, Daniel 12:1-2, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

They are the friend of the Bridegroom, John 3:29, the virgins of Matt. 25, and those who are invited to the marriage reception Rev. 19:9.

Now another simple question: Who are the people referred to as “thy people” in these Daniel passages?

Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people [are become] a reproach to all [that are] about us.

Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.

Dan 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[topcat54]

No, they are quickened at the second coming after the tribulation period, Daniel 12:1-2,

So, Abraham was not a FOJ (Friend of Jesus) even thought Jesus Himself declared, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad"? Abraham will not be among those who have fallen asleep in Christ even thought Paul says he is the spiritual father of God’s elect, the Church (Gal. 3:28,29)?

And here I thought hyper-dispensationalism was all but dead.

They are the friend of the Bridegroom, John 3:29, the virgins of Matt. 25, and those who are invited to the marriage reception Rev. 19:9.

That’s a pure raw assertion without any biblical support. You or your teachers made it up from whole clothe.

Who are the people referred to as “thy people” in these Daniel passages?

In context, each verse seems to have a slightly different meaning. Some of them indicate all of the nation of Israel (9:15). Some of them indicate faithless Israel (9:15). Some the remnant, “children of thy people” (12:1). Your point being?

Of course I see your point (which makes no sense), since you slice and dice the Bible and make “the rapture” distinct from the Second Coming, you need two physical resurrections of the people of God. A churchy one and a Jewish one. The Bible knows of no such construct. You are simply imposing it upon selective texts.

It’s all just another example of The Sytem® making mincemeat of the Bible.

[topcat54]

Typo: Sorry, that should be “Some of them indicate faithless Israel (9:16).”

[topcat54]

No, they are quickened at the second coming after the tribulation period, Daniel 12:1-2,

I asked about 1 Thess. 4:13ff. Just to be clear so no one accuses me of being a closet dispensationalist, 1 Thess. 4:13ff is the Second Coming.

I am quite confident that Adam and Abraham and Moses and David will be there along with Peter and Paul and Stephen and Luke and the rest of the saints when we all meet the Lord in the air. Abraham is asleep in Christ no less than the apostle Paul, since salvation is by His blood alone.

The absurdity of dividing the saints along racial lines at the Second Coming is obvious.

[enat]

“So, Abraham was not a FOJ (Friend of Jesus) even thought Jesus Himself declared, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad”?”

Ah, you don't like the answer so you want to change the question. Let me remind you what you asked,

“Will Adam and Abraham and Moses and David be numbered among “those who sleep in Jesus” and are quickened at Christ’s appearing ala 1 Thess. 4:13ff?”

Nothing there about being a friend of Jesus.

But what about Daniel's prophecy concerning the resurrection of Daniel's “thy people”,

Daniel 12:1-3,”.....and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

Who are “thy people” Gabriel is referring to? When does this resurrection take place and “thy people” shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever”?

“you need two physical resurrections of the people of God. A churchy one and a Jewish one. The Bible knows of no such construct. You are simply imposing it upon selective texts.”

Perhaps you will explain this Daniel text out of the optimistic post-mil system.

“the virgins of Matt. 25, and those who are invited to the marriage reception Rev. 19:9.

That’s a pure raw assertion without any biblical support. You or your teachers made it up from whole clothe.”

Where are unbelievers ever called “virgins” in relation to Christ? For that matter, when is a bride ever invited to her own marriage feast?

[topcat54]

Nothing there about being a friend of Jesus.

What does "those who sleep in Jesus" mean in 1 Thess. 4:14?

Ah, you don't like the answer so you want to change the question. Let me remind you what you asked,

Of course I don’t like the answer because it is unbiblical, but it was exactly the answer I expected from folks who subscribe to The System®.

Nothing there about being a friend of Jesus.

Spoken like a true dispensationalist. It’s not there because The System® doesn’t allow it to be there.

Daniel 12:1-3

Just so I’m not missing anything, is there anything in Daniel 12 to suggest a separation in time between “the rapture” and the Second Coming? It’s not clear why you keep bringing it up.

[Lee N. Field]

It’s not there because The System® doesn’t allow it to be there.

[enat]

“What does “those who sleep in Jesus” mean in 1 Thess. 4:14?”

Within the context of the letter to a church that was concerned about the church's dead, Paul was explaining that they are with Christ and would come with Him when He comes for His church.

“Daniel 12:1-3

Just so I’m not missing anything, is there anything in Daniel 12 to suggest a separation in time between “the rapture” and the Second Coming?”

Why don't you just explain the passage according to your system and not worry what about what I am thinking? I have posted my interpretation according to my understanding of the text and you think the interpretation is wrong but you haven't given yours, only your opinion on mine.

Daniel 12:1-3,”.....and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

Who are “thy people” Gabriel is referring to? When does this resurrection take place and “thy people” shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever”?

[MarkBsnr]

***No, you MUST take the whole of Scripture in its context and not toss out an entire Testament worth of promises.

We don’t toss anything out. We read the OT as it was intended, through the fuller revelation of the NT, with Jesus Christ (not national Israel) as the focus. You guys read it as if the NT was never written and the Messiah has not yet appeared.***

A very cogent way of putting it.

[Blogger]

The Bible is NOT a monolyth. There is not just one message. It is the story of Salvation, through and through, but Savior is not the only way God revealed Himself to us in Scripture. There are MANY messages concerning His person and character in Scripture, some of which are exclusive of us even.

Romans 11 is VERY explicit.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [Note, he calls himself an Israelite, and identifies himself not in the generalized Christian sense of Israel, but specifically by tribe and lineage]

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. [who are those people???] Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [the ones who killed the prophets, and persecuted Elijah - those people. Again, not a generalized Christian reference, but specific to national Israel].

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[Just as God reserved to himself men from Israel in Elijah's day, so he reserves for himself a remnant in Israel today. The church hasn't entered into this discourse yet, though the people he is speaking of are part of both the church and the subgroup of the church, regenerate Israel]

... 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[THe rest of whom? National Israel]

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. [Who is the they here? Israel. Lineal Israel. National Israel.The Jews and other Israeli tribes.]
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [Their fall, that is Israel's fall, is salvation for the Gentiles, but that is not its primary purpose. It is to provoke Israel to jealousy. She has prostituted herself to other gods. And now, she has rejected her Messiah. God worked into His plan to save the Gentiles in order that the Israelites would see what they had cast aside. In order to make them jealous for God.]

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

[Paul is referring to their fall AND their ultimate salvation. The Bible is a book about God and His people. His people is not the Church, though in this sense, the Church is a subset of Israel. His people is Israel. It is the story of God's grace shown to a stiffnecked people, which ultimately will culminate in that same stiffnecked people returning to Him - with many adopted siblings at their sides]

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [Here is the Gentile side of the equation. By grace, we were grafted in. We did NOT replace Israel. We are made part of Israel.]

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [Very sober warning that God makes against those who would set themselves up as superceding His relationship with Israel. The church did NOT replace Israel. Israel doesn't get to be a part of the church's club. The church gets to be a part of Israel's club, and Israel still retains the promises made to it when it stood alone - including the promises regarding the land.]

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[Again very sobering and also explicitly showing a separation between the two groups - Israel, the ones who fell. And the Gentiles- the ones who had better watch their step!]

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. [Bless God, Scripture indicates this very thing will occur!]

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [This blinding is for a definite period of time. UNTIL....]

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[Remnant Israel. Remnant of NATIONAL Israel. Will be saved.All that God has elected to come to salvation in National Israel, will be saved. When? After the fulness of the Gentiles has come in]

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[Who is the 'they' and 'them'? ISRAEL. The church became a part of that, but the covenant was with Israel, not the church.]

28As concerning the gospel, they [Israel]are enemies for your [The Gentiles, as noted earlier]sakes: but as touching the election, they[Israel] are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [I.E., There is no Replacementarian successionist promise here. The promises of God will still be fulfilled 100%]

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[God's other purpose in blinding Israel. So that all of the nations would have an opportunity to accept or reject]

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.[Amen! and Amen!]

[Blogger]

No. It is called Israel. Please see my post immedately above this one.

[attiladhun2]

I won’t go so far as to say he was never born again. I never judge a man’s eternal state, since that puts me in a postition that belongs to God alone.

[Blogger]

I have no problem with saying the Old Testament Saints are raised at the rapture. Scripture says the dead in Christ. These men, by faith, were in Christ.

[Blogger]

The rapture, like the church, was a Mystery in Old Testament Times. There are hints of both, but it was to see its fulfillment in later times.

I Corinthians 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Ephesians 5 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

[attiladhun2]

Dispensationalists also confuse what is a test for believers is judgment for the unbelievers. The Tribulation will be a test that believers will pass with flying colors either through their perserverence, or through their martyrdom. Hence, there will be no “rapture,” i.e., secret coming of Christ. There is only one Second Advent and that happens at the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of (dare I say it), the Millenium.

[Ping-Pong]

Thank you Blogger. I appreciate your taking the time with this but my understanding of those verses is different.

The Christians today are either descended from the tribes or are adopted into the family of Israel...all of Israel, not the little nation that returned in 1948. The prophecies are to (and/or) about us as well as the Jews. When we see written that there will be a time of Jacob's trouble...that will be a time of trouble for us. It will be the great tribulation in which satan comes to earth masquerading as Christ. And...he will fool the world.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ....that is us!

[Blogger]

In the context of Romans 9-11 Paul is differenciating the people of his birth from the Gentiles. You are badly distorting the text to say otherwise. Only for the purpose of indicating the true nature of the body of believers, the holy nation, Christ’s Church. The remnant of Israel together with the wild branches from the nations makes up the one new man. The ethnic distinctions are passed away, like the old covenant. “There is neither Jew nor Greek.”

Let me ask you this. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

The all men here...is that really all men without distinction? I believe it is - particularly the three mentioned, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. God created all men (and women) with certain things that were their right as human beings - rights that should not be incroached upon by others. Yet, some never recognize those rights. Some rob others of those rights. Some recognized those rights in 1776, and some much later. Still, none of this changes the fact that these people have been given these rights by their Creator and the rights are part of who they are and irrevocable. Kill a baby, you have violated its rights, but you have not supplanted its rights.

Applied to Israel and the Church, the promises were Israel's. Israel was God's peculiar people He set aside for Himself. Romans 11 indicates that He has NOT cast them away. Only right now, they are blind to God. Another group was brought in and enjoys by adoption many of the same privileges, and in that respect, they are no different. All will come to know Christ and be saved by faith. And, in spite of their current state of unbelief, Scripture indicates that a large remnant of national Israel will be saved. Israel had many promises given to it in Scripture. The chief two are the promise of salvation (I will be Your God and You will be my people)and the land (from Egypt to the Euphrates). The church, grafted in, participates in the first of those chief promises, but probably not the second one as we will be busy in the New Jerusalem. Ultimately, a New Heaven and New Earth will come about. We will have different roles and functions there. We will be distinct, and yet one.