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To: Blogger
In the context of Romans 9-11 Paul is differenciating the people of his birth from the Gentiles. You are badly distorting the text to say otherwise.

Isn't Paul telling us that all believers are one...the body of Christ?

241 posted on 03/25/2009 8:54:02 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
The Bible is NOT a monolyth. There is not just one message. It is the story of Salvation, through and through, but Savior is not the only way God revealed Himself to us in Scripture. There are MANY messages concerning His person and character in Scripture, some of which are exclusive of us even.

Romans 11 is VERY explicit.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [Note, he calls himself an Israelite, and identifies himself not in the generalized Christian sense of Israel, but specifically by tribe and lineage]

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. [who are those people???] Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [the ones who killed the prophets, and persecuted Elijah - those people. Again, not a generalized Christian reference, but specific to national Israel].

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Just as God reserved to himself men from Israel in Elijah's day, so he reserves for himself a remnant in Israel today. The church hasn't entered into this discourse yet, though the people he is speaking of are part of both the church and the subgroup of the church, regenerate Israel]

... 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[THe rest of whom? National Israel]

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. [Who is the they here? Israel. Lineal Israel. National Israel.The Jews and other Israeli tribes.]
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [Their fall, that is Israel's fall, is salvation for the Gentiles, but that is not its primary purpose. It is to provoke Israel to jealousy. She has prostituted herself to other gods. And now, she has rejected her Messiah. God worked into His plan to save the Gentiles in order that the Israelites would see what they had cast aside. In order to make them jealous for God.]

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

[Paul is referring to their fall AND their ultimate salvation. The Bible is a book about God and His people. His people is not the Church, though in this sense, the Church is a subset of Israel. His people is Israel. It is the story of God's grace shown to a stiffnecked people, which ultimately will culminate in that same stiffnecked people returning to Him - with many adopted siblings at their sides]

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [Here is the Gentile side of the equation. By grace, we were grafted in. We did NOT replace Israel. We are made part of Israel.]

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [Very sober warning that God makes against those who would set themselves up as superceding His relationship with Israel. The church did NOT replace Israel. Israel doesn't get to be a part of the church's club. The church gets to be a part of Israel's club, and Israel still retains the promises made to it when it stood alone - including the promises regarding the land.]

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[Again very sobering and also explicitly showing a separation between the two groups - Israel, the ones who fell. And the Gentiles- the ones who had better watch their step!]

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. [Bless God, Scripture indicates this very thing will occur!]

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [This blinding is for a definite period of time. UNTIL....]

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[Remnant Israel. Remnant of NATIONAL Israel. Will be saved.All that God has elected to come to salvation in National Israel, will be saved. When? After the fulness of the Gentiles has come in]

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[Who is the 'they' and 'them'? ISRAEL. The church became a part of that, but the covenant was with Israel, not the church.]

28As concerning the gospel, they [Israel]are enemies for your [The Gentiles, as noted earlier]sakes: but as touching the election, they[Israel] are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [I.E., There is no Replacementarian successionist promise here. The promises of God will still be fulfilled 100%]

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[God's other purpose in blinding Israel. So that all of the nations would have an opportunity to accept or reject]

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.[Amen! and Amen!]
253 posted on 03/25/2009 4:22:25 PM PDT by Blogger (Pray and Prepare)
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