Old Calvinism is Now the New Calvinism

American Vision ^ | March 23, 2009 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

“Calvinism is back,” so says David Van Biema in the March 22, 2009 issue of Time magazine. Calvinism is listed as one of “10 ideas changing the world Right now.” It’s third on the list. When most people hear the word “Calvinism,” they bite down only on the gristle of predestination and then spit out the whole piece of meat. There is much more to Calvinism that is obscured by the misapplied aversion to particular redemption. As a student at Reformed Theological Seminary in the 1970s, I was taught that certain cultural applications flowed from a consistent application of Calvinism. Calvinism is synonymous with a comprehensive biblical world-and-life view. Simply put, I was told that the Bible applies to every area of life. To be a Calvinist is to make biblical application to issues beyond personal salvation (Heb. 5:11–14).

[Buddygirl]

God is omnipotent, period. But He doesn’t force Himself on people. That is the tenet of Calvinism I disagree with. Might as well stop here because nothing you can do to change my mind.

[OPREV]

Speaking of gardens, I'm eating some yummy celery and bell peps as we speak. (with Caesar dip, LOL) :D

I'll start a new topic titled - Jesus came back Already

Lol. You can watch the debate from there. ;)

But, it is the most logical look at that part of scripture (Matt 24) I decided. :D

[Buddygirl]

People in the Old Testament responded to God without their spirit being quickened. Same in the New Testament until Jesus rose from the dead. He is the first man to rise from the dead still living. His Spirit then responds to our belief in Jesus by quickening their spirit. The people in New Testament time knew nothing of Calvinism. It came 14-1500 years later. This is my last response to you since I am not going to change my mind. I don’t accept Calvinism’s claims.

[PAR35]

the Calvinists I have met and interacted with have come across as cold, aggressive people.

Thanks.

[topcat54]

Jesus came back, took some people with him, and went back to heaven circa 70AD.

Sure He did.

[topcat54]

People in the Old Testament responded to God without their spirit being quickened.

Where do you get this stuff from?

[Fantasywriter]

You’re welcome. :)

[Blogger]

Read a little harder.

[Blogger]

I am well aware of our grafting in. Romans 9 is one of the passages that makes me a Calvinist. That said, Romans 9 and Zechariah 12-14 are speaking of two different groups. Zechariah 12-14 is a subgroup of the Romans 9 group; but they aren't the same way.

I have no idea why the Israelophobes are so intent on stripping the Jews and Israelites of God's promises. Zechariah has a geographic location. It is very specific (as opposed to generalized ‘Christians’) in its scope. And makes sense only in the context of the whole.

Ya’ll are incorrigible!

[Blogger]

Then start listening to the dispensationalists. We can point you to the passages of Scripture you are evidentally missing, but we can do nothing with the hairstyles of your leaders.

[4Godsoloved..Hegave]

By the grace of God I will keep reading and learning all that He has for me from His Word.

So if I don’t see things your way, I must need to read harder. Good thing I agree with your TULIP or I would never get to that Dave Hunt book. It is BIG.

[topcat54]

Then start listening to the dispensationalists. We can point you to the passages of Scripture you are evidentally missing, but we can do nothing with the hairstyles of your leaders.

Oh, I know you can point to the Scriptures. Problem is everyone needs to drink the kool aid to see things they way the dispensationalists do. If you do not first adopt the system, the Scriptures will not make dispensational sense. E.g., one only finds a hint of a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures by first insisting on the radial distinction between Israel and the Church according to the system of dispensationalism. One you accept the system, then you can deduce that the Church (God's heavenly people) must disappear from the scene so the God can once again begin dealing with national Israel (God's earthly people). Enter the pre-trib rapture to solve the problem created by the system.

As one person put it:

Despite the dispensationalists’ central affirmation of the “plain interpretation” of Scripture (Charles Ryrie) by which their so-called literalism provides “a coherent and consistent interpretation” (John Walvoord), it ends up with one of the most ornate and complex systems in all of evangelical theology, with differing peoples, principles, plans, programs, and destinies because interpreting Scripture is not so “plain” (despite Charles Ryrie).

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

Once you accept the system, and get your student (prey) to do the same, then it is easier to navigate them through the disjoint, winding verses (usually ripped out of context) to prove the system. All the while being careful to avoid the nasty parts of the Bible (like large regions of the NT) that will do the system in.

What they don't tell you is that all you end up with is a bad case of ...

[topcat54]

I have no idea why the Israelophobes are so intent on stripping the Jews and Israelites of God's promises. Zechariah has a geographic location. It is very specific (as opposed to generalized ‘Christians’) in its scope. And makes sense only in the context of the whole.

It only makes sense if you drink the dispensational kool aid and start thinking that God runs a two-fer sale: two sets of people, two sets of promises, two set of destinies, two second coming, two judgments, two thrones, two Jerusalems, two temples.

You must also believe that “old covenant” and “new covenant” are really misnomers, and what God really intended to say was earthly covenant and heavenly covenant running in parallel with two different sets of people.

[Quix]

Sad.

Very sad.

Some folks just seem determined to maintain a death grip on dreadfully deadly stuff.

[Quix]

Thankfully, God is keeping the only score I’m concerned about.

And He’s been increasingly affirming to me recently.

[Blogger]

You must also believe that “old covenant” and “new covenant” are really misnomers, and what God really intended to say was earthly covenant and heavenly covenant running in parallel with two different sets of people.
No, you MUST take the whole of Scripture in its context and not toss out an entire Testament worth of promises.

[topcat54]

No, you MUST take the whole of Scripture in its context and not toss out an entire Testament worth of promises.

We don't toss anything out. We read the OT as it was intended, through the fuller revelation of the NT, with Jesus Christ (not national Israel) as the focus. You guys read it as if the NT was never written and the Messiah has not yet appeared.

[OPREV]

Jesus came back, took some people with him, and went back to heaven circa 70AD.

Sure He did.

Sorry. I can't help it if people don't believe that Jesus meant what he said. Lol. :D

Mat 24:3 Then as He is sitting on the Mount of Olives, the DISCIPLES approached Him PRIVATELY, saying, "Tell us when these will be? And what the sign of Your Arrival and of the conclusion of the age?"

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto THEM (Not YOU),

Take heed that no man lead YOU astray. For many shall come in my name, saying I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

And Jesus said to Simon who is called Peter

Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet.

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places.

Mat 24:8 But all these things are the beginning of travail.

And Jesus said to James the son of Zebedee

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver You up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

And Jesus said to Matthew the Publican

Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains!

(The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD)

Mat 24:17 let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house:

Mat 24:18 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak.

Mat 24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

And Jesus said to Philip and Bartholomew and Thomas the doubter

Mat 24:20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter! Neither on a sabbath!

Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

And Jesus said to Andrew, Simon's brother

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not!

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

And Jesus said to Thaddaeus and Simon the Cananaean

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you beforehand!

Mat 24:26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not!

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Mat 24:28 Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the land mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;

Mat 24:33 even so ye also, when YOU (THE DISCIPLES) see All these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.

And 2000 years ago Jesus continued to speak to Peter, and Matthew, and James, and John, and Thomas, and Bartholomew And he Said to THEM (Not YOU, unless you were alive in 31AD)

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS generation shall Not pass away, till All these things be accomplished.

A generation is from father to son. About 40 years. It is NOT 2000 years.

WHAT GENERATION?

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ,

Mat 16:4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah.

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep

Jesus said he would return in their generation. "A generation is one step in the line of descent from an ancestor" (Webster's) Any other interpretation makes him a liar. If he didn't come back in their time, then, he lied. So was he lying?

[Blogger]

Jousting at straw men has made your sword rather dull topcat and apparently your senses. Of course, the Old Testament is the New Testament Concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament Revealed. Jesus Christ is the center of both - and his promises, even the older ones - will ALL come to pass; including:
Zechariah 12:8-14:21
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[paulist]

No, you’re right; Jesus is on his hands and knees begging and pleading with people to repent and believe in Him. He is waiting with baited breath to see who will and won’t “choose” Him (whatever that means).

What a pathetic view of God. And before you say “that’s not what I believe”, well no Calvinist believes that God “forces himself on people” either. God reveals the glory of Christ to whom He chooses, and He leaves the rest of humanity to their darkened minds. Scripture couldn’t be clearer on this, unless one is determined to steal some of the credit for their salvation.