Hebrew DNA found in South America? [OPEN]

Was Hebrew DNA recently found in American Indian populations in South America? According to Scott R. Woodward, executive director of Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, a DNA marker, called the "Cohen modal haplotype," sometimes associated with Hebrew people, has been found in Colombia, Brazil and Bolivia.

But it probably has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon -- at least not directly.

For years several critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of the Book of Mormon have claimed that the lack of Hebrew DNA markers in living Native American populations is evidence the book can't be true. They say the book's description of ancient immigrations of Israelites is fictional.

"But," said Woodward, "as Hugh Nibley used to say, 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "

Critic Thomas Murphy, for example, wrote in one article about how the Cohen modal haplotype had been found in the Lemba clan in Africa. The Lemba clan's oral tradition claims it has Jewish ancestors.

Murphy then complained, "If the (Book of Mormon) documented actual Israelite migrations to the New World, then one would expect to find similar evidence to that found in a Lemba clan in one or more Native American populations. Such evidence, however, has not been forthcoming."

So will Murphy and other critics use this new evidence of Hebrew DNA markers to prove the Book of Mormon is correct? Probably not. But neither should anyone else.

According to Woodward, the way critics have used DNA studies to attack the Book of Mormon is "clearly wrong." And it would be equally wrong to use similar DNA evidence to try to prove it.

According to Woodward, while forensic DNA (popularized in TV shows like "CSI") looks for the sections of DNA that vary greatly from individual to individual, the sections of DNA used for studying large groups are much smaller and do not change from individual to individual.

Studies using this second type of DNA yield differing levels of reliability or, as Woodward calls it, "resolution."

At a lower resolution the confidence in the results goes down. At higher resolution confidence goes up in the results.

The critics' problem now is what they do with the low-resolution discovery of Hebrew DNA in American Indian populations.

For people who believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account, the problem is to resist the temptation to misuse this new discovery.

Woodward says that most likely, when higher-resolution tests are used, we will learn that the Hebrew DNA in native populations can be traced to conquistadors whose ancestors intermarried with Jewish people in Spain or even more modern migrations.

Ironically, it is the misuse of evidence that gave critics fuel to make their DNA arguments in the first place. According to Woodward, the critics are attacking the straw man that all American Indians are only descendants of the migrations described in the Book of Mormon and from no other source.

Although some Latter-day Saints have assumed this was the case, this is not a claim the Book of Mormon itself actually makes. Scholars have argued for more than 50 years that the book allows for the migrations meeting an existing population.

This completely undermines the critics' conclusions. They argue with evangelic zeal that the Book of Mormon demands that no other DNA came to America but from Book of Mormon groups.

Woodward also sees that it is essential to read the Book of Mormon story closely to understand what type of DNA the Book of Mormon people would have had. The Book of Mormon describes different migrations to the New World. The most prominent account is the 600-B.C. departure from Jerusalem of a small group led by a prophet named Lehi. But determining Lehi's DNA is difficult because the book claims he is not even Jewish, but a descendant of the biblical Joseph.

According to Woodward, even if you assume we knew what DNA to look for, finding DNA evidence of Book of Mormon people may be very difficult. When a small group of people intermarry into a large population, the DNA markers that might identify their descendants could entirely disappear -- even though their genealogical descendants could number in the millions.

This means it is possible that almost every American Indian alive today could be genealogically related to Lehi's family but still retain no identifiable DNA marker to prove it. In other words, you could be related genealogically to and perhaps even feel a spiritual kinship with an ancestor but still not have any vestige of his DNA.

"I don't dismiss the possibility," said Woodward, "but the probability is pretty low."

Woodward speculated about it, imagining he were able to identify pieces of DNA that would be part of Lehi's gene pool. Then, imagine if a match was found in the Native American population.

But even then, Woodward would be cautious. "It could have been other people who share the same (DNA) markers," said Woodward about the imaginary scenario.

"It's an amazingly complex picture. To think that you can prove (group relationships) like you can use DNA to identify a (criminal) is not on the same scale of scientific inquiry."

Like the Book of Mormon itself, from records buried for centuries in the Hill Cumorah, genetic "proof" may remain hid up unto the Lord.

Yet, like many other finds like this, ya’ll will ignore them because they do not match what you want the answer to be.

KJV

Galatians 1:6-9

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

ANYBODY???

Like this fine looking fellow???

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Like THESE guys??

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Ephesians 2:1-2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Pretty common cycle for mormons.

Yup - right up there in High Leadership!!

I defer to the Words of Wisdom from one of your late Prophets:

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

DU: As for Joseph smith, it’s pretty clear (except for those who don’t want to see) that Joseph had a problem with the trinity after being called as a prophet and seeing Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen).

TN: 1. It’s not CLEAR...

IMHO, You also don't want to see.

TN: 2. Where’s the written documentation that states “Joseph had a problem with the trinity after being called as a prophet and seeing Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen).” in Joe Smith’s own words...

It's in the D&C

TN: 3. If Joe Smith said he saw “Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen).”, where’s the documentation ???

It's in the D&C

TN: 4. Joe Smith alleges that he saw “two personages” in a grove...that the “two personages” came to him...

Alleges, kind of like Stephen alleged to have seen God and Christ? What is this corruption of history by saying alleged like you are a court reporter talking about a criminal who just hasn't yet been convicted... Yet, It's a pathetic tactic and not one used by someone who wants the truth or is open to it. Hence IMHO, you just don't want to see.

Joseph Smith testified and like Stephen was killed for his testimony of God and Christ.

Then there is Joseph's comparison of his vision with Paul's vision and how Paul was treated:

24 However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.
25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

FYI, Personage was a common term in the 1820's when you didn't want to say angel or God out of respect.

DU: Stephen looked into HEAVEN and saw Jesus at the right hand of God...

TN: Act 7:55 But he, (Stephen) being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into Heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Right, Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus (one personage) standing on the right hand of God (second personage). Yep, two personages.

TN: Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55, 56

Stephen says I see the heavens opened and I see the Son of Man (first personage) standing on the right hand of God (second personage).

TN: Nope, definitely no the same...

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

TN: Even Joe Smith never said it was the same...

Actually, he did, he talked about his calling as a prophet and spent lots of time telling the story to widely differing groups of people, he talked of God, and Christ and did so in reverential terms. What a load of balderdash to say he didn't say it was God and Christ.

Deny all you want, who else is ever introduced by a heavenly being as "This is my beloved son, hear him." Come on!

IMHO, You just don't want to see.

There were few early Jewish-Christians. Within a generation, they were vastly eclipsed in numbers by gentiles. And many of the early Jewish-Christians were killed in the rebellions against Rome.

The remainder assimilated. Their "Hebrew" DNA passed throughout the generations into a much, much larger pool, and became so diluted as to not really be measurable.

On the other hand, in areas where vast numbers of Jews were forcibly converted and assimilated, distinctive Hebrew DNA signatures have been left. A case in point, as I mentioned earlier, is Spain - where 20% of the population has verifiable Jewish ancestry through genetics. Or, for that matter, the Palestinians, who have strong genetic influences not only from Arabs, but also from Jews, Samaritans, Greeks and European Crusaders who assimilated over the centuries.

Unlike the descendants of Jewish-Christians (where, after 80 generations or so, their Hebrew DNA is minimal), most modern Jews (Ethiopians and modern converts excluded) have a very strong component of "original" Hebrew DNA -- likely more than 50%. That's why we can categorize something as "Jewish/Hebrew" DNA in the first place -- because there are certain markers found in Jewish populations at very high frequencies.

Joseph Smith testified and like Stephen was killed for his testimony of God and Christ.
_____________________________________________

Kid, someone needs to teach you the difference between

Stephen, a man of God ....

And Joe Smith, a dabbler in the occult, a conman who scammed his own cabal, and a sex crazed drunken, thief and murderer...

Joe Smith got himself killed during a jail break, because he shoot and killed 3 guys outside the jail he was in...

He was in jail because he was a lecher who debauched young girls,

he conned his own followers and others out of huge amounts of cash in a phony bank scam...

He burned down a private newspaper office ...

He destroyed a private printing press...

He threatened the lives of the newspaper men...

He did that because they had printed the truth about him...

They printed the truth about him

because he had indecently propositioned one of their wives...and wouldnt take no for an answer...

He had debauched several of the under aged girls ...

He had sent some of his followers on “missions” so he could seduce their wives..

He claimed he had to debauch virgins in order to go to his “celestial Kingdom”

He claimed that his motrmon god had told him to...

He also stole cattle and property from Missourians and Ohioans and Illinisians who were not in his gang...

He also laundered phony money among the same non-mormons...

He started the Danites murdered sevaral of his own gang..

and innocent non-mormons to steal their property...

He called himself the king of the world ...

He said he was greater than Jesus...

He was convicted several times for his peep stone money digging...

He used the same peep stones to pretend to write a book which he sold for profit...

He was an occultist all his life and sold fortunes and info about “hidden treasure”

He started a secret sex club for a selected few in his cabal...They wore special under wear with occult and Mason symbols..He told them to always to wear the under wear as a badge of belonging to the club...He didnt always wear his though, and he wasnt wearing them the day he got himself killed...It is suggested that his private club members had reason to think he had betrayed them or was going to...

When Stephen died he was calling upon God...

When Joe Smith died he was murdering other men and had a occult medal of Jupiter around his neck...

Again I am speaking of *Genetics* Since all people originated from Noah a Gentile you have people that were Israelites which were not all Jews..

So if you take the Ancient World and divide all the people up on the Planet all you have are people from one of one the 12 Tribes of Israel and gentiles.... Based upon that fact alone, no records during that time could account for all the people on the earth and say wether they were from one of the tribes of Israel...

Maybe you are saying certain tribes have genetic markers, but to say all tribes from Israel carry the same Hebrew DNA seems out of the realm of human possibilities.

The Bible speaks of Israel and basically the Jews of Israel and the expansion of Christianity from Judasim..

To dis-count all other people on the planet by saying they did not have an inheritance of Hebrew DNA because the Bible does not address certain tribes and those people seems a bit arrogant IMHO.

People gathered all over the earth based on many things in addition to religion, race, language culture and personal rituals and practices...

One other thing Nostradamus was born a Jew converted to Christianity had many many children do they no longer have Hebrew DNA?

The Jews in the world over the last 2000 yrs who converted to other religions would be impossible to identify...

Because it is not a race...

You see it differently?

TN is correct, it is not clear

1827 both joey and his dad provided an account to Willard Chase stating that joey was first visited by a spirit when he was 17

1827 Harris recounted the story joey told him that when he was 18-19 after an evening of money-digging an angel appeared to Joseph in a vision telling him he has been chosen to be a prophet and bring forth a record on gold plates.

1830 In an interview of Joseph Smith by Peter Bauder, recounted by Bauder in his book The Kingdom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, joey said an angel told him where to find a secret treasure

1832 In joey's own handwriting, he stated that when he was 15 he had a vision of Jesus

1834/35 Joey got together with Oliver Cowdery to publish the the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834. In it Joey said he was 17 and was visited by an angel.

1835-36 Another journal account by joey published in Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee. Here he was 14, saw unidentified personages, one testifies about Jesus, but neither are identified as such, plus multitudes of angels. Though this account appears in Joseph Smith's diary, it was omitted from the History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 304

1835 Account given by Joseph Smith to Erastus Holmes on November 14, 1835, originally published in the Deseret News of Saturday May 29, 1852. joey was again 14, but only had angels visit him.

1838 - the official account written by a scribe, not smith has him at 14 speaking to two personages. One identifies the other as his son (by implication God the Father and Jesus, but not explicitly stated) Not actually released to the public until 1844

1844 Account in An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, edited by Daniel Rupp. Joseph Smith wrote the chapter on Mormonism. Joey again visited by two unidentified individuals when he was 14

Clearly the story swerves like a drunken sailor, can't remember his age, whether he was visited by a spirit, an angel, lots of angels, Jesus, Jesus and the Father. What was it DU? only one version supports the current revelation, yet all came from Joey.

Then there is Joseph's comparison of his vision with Paul's vision and how Paul was treated:

LOL, its the 'ol Paul conversion comparison again huh DU? You have listed above 9 widely different versions of what allegedly is the same event. I double dog dare you to show that Paul's story swerved even half as much. BTW - don't forget to use your lexicon for key words and phrases or you will wind up embarrassed again.

Actually, he did, he talked about his calling as a prophet and spent lots of time telling the story to widely differing groups of people, he talked of God, and Christ and did so in reverential terms. What a load of balderdash to say he didn't say it was God and Christ.

DU, I listed 9 accounts, in only one account could it be inferred that he spoke to heavenly father and Jesus - the official version. He spoke in these of a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son that addressed him. Facts are facts and TN has them on her side on this. Your history is there above, go forth and embrace it and learn from it and give up your balderdash.

Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith - Praise to the Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdH3bj74yeg

The times we are living in I am so thankful for the Lord’s Jesus Christ and his humble servant Joseph for restoring the Lord’s Church upon the earth again.

Many will flock at our gates for refuge for the Lord will have a safe haven for his own even those who are now lost!

My heart swells and it so humbling as child that our Lord is there watching over us it bring tears to my eyes as I listen to the news at the destruction of our wonderful nation and very few hear the clarion call.

I know it is faith and keeping on doing what the Lord has asked and trust in Him just like it must have felt with Moroni when his part of the world was coming to a close yet he preserved the Book of Mormon for our latter days so many good servants of the Lord has passed through the earth and some are still among us!

Thank you in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know ‘Brother Joseph’ again.

Chorus

True, very true. It is not just one line of dna/genetic study that disproves the Lamamite-American Indian myth, but multiple studies such as:

LOL!

and I quote "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

you guys claim it is.

Let's just say that this fallacy ridden logic is valid for a moment and play with some things I don't know.

I have no evidence that Godzilla is not gay...

I have no evidence that ChicagoHebrew is not gay...

I have no evidence that Godzilla and ChicagoHebrew are not rooming together...

Luckily, I don't buy the I have no evidence to disprove, so it's true line, and neither should anyone with two braincells to rub together.

Yet the prophetic voice of the mormon presidency remains silent - allowing the unauthorized ramblings of the apologists to scramble everywhere to deflect the mormon sheeple from the truth.

What truth?

DNA studies to prove the book of Mormon is true? Give it a rest, there is no Way to prove the Book of Mormon false with DNA, the Book of Mormon says they started with a genetically impure sample by including slaves in the party that set off and letting them marry in, not only that, but it speaks of meeting people who were already in the Americas and marrying in with them. The story line just does not support DNA verification in the negative.

If you guys understood DNA, and had actually read the Book of Mormon, you'd know that, but you don't or at least claim not to.

As for proving the book of Mormon true, you ignore the Middle eastern markers including Jewish ones common in pure descendants of Mayans to claim "nothing shows..."

Whatever, at least you guys are amusing.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.