Posted on 01/16/2009 6:47:21 AM PST by Former Fetus
Does anybody have a link to read the works of Josephus on-line? I am trying to get corroboration from secular history of Herod's massacre of boys under 2. Also, since he ruled in Galilee before siding with Octavius and becoming ruler of Judea, I am curious as to the how far the massacre took place. I mean, Matthew quoted Jeremiah about "weeping and mourning in Ramah" but it doesn't say that is as far as it went. I'll appreciate very much any information as I am trying to help my pastor here. Thanks.
I don’t believe Josephus makes mention of it.
Download a copy of E-sword. Then, download a copy of Josephus. It is also know as “The Antiquities of the Jews.” Both of these are freeware, but a donation is requested. IMO, payment is well worth it because this is the premier Bible online available. No, you don’t have to be connected to the net to use, just to download it.
bump for later
Speaking of Josephus, what does everyone think of paragraph 3 in Antiquitie, the Testimonium Flavianum?
There is no historical corroboration for the slaughter of innocents. The only place in the world it is mentioned is in Matthew.
Thak you for the link.
I have no researched this extensively, but my understanding is that this is not corraborated in secular history. Not surprising really. Herod was a bloody man and prone to slaughter, including members of his own family.
I do not believe Josephus documents the infant massacre as described by Matthew, However, there are a whole lot of other events that Josephus fails to mention. Here is one about more family of Herod that are not mentioned by Josephus
http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSTRE4AI7S920081119?feedType=RSS&feedName=scienceNews
Herod was such a bloody tyrant that a localized massacre of children in one village or even several villages might not have even made Josephus’ reporting threshold of “historical significance”
The valley of gehenna that runs around the Herod-built wall around the old city of Jerusalem toward Mt of Olives, and valley which Herod’s palace overlooked, was the historical site of ritual child sacrifice by ancient mollech worshippers - the site thus contributing to the emergence of the word and concept of conditions in “hell”
I think what you are looking for is Book 18, chapter 2. It doesn’t give detail, but does describe several ‘slaughters’ in Galilee. It also describes complaints to Caesar against Herod for various atrocities. In this it describes a complaint of Herod ‘slaying any nobility’.
There is several sources of Herod slaying rival nobility. Maybe we are just looking for the wrong thing. Based on Jesus’ bloodline and why Herod ‘slayed the innocents’, instead of looking for a child massacre, look for mentions of where Herod slayed nobility or eliminated all rivals (Antiquities chapter 18 for example.)
Correction on previous, Book 18, not Chapter 18...
Coventry Carol (In Honor of the Holy Innocents, the First Martyrs for Christ)
The Holy Family vs. The Holy Innocents: A Christmas season reflection [Catholic Caucus]
Holy Innocents (also known as Childermas or Children’s Mass)
THE HOLY INNOCENTS Feast: December 28
Feast of the Holy Innocents - December 28 - 1928 BCP
We remember today the Holy Innocents, First Martyrs
Orthodox Feast of the Holy Innocents, December 29
December 28 - Feast of the Holy Innocents
Good question, with excellent answers. Thanks to all!
I doubt that you will find much on the subject that you are seeking. Ancient texts have been lost or never written on subjects that we would regard as noteworthy these days, but were unremarkable in their day.
Most all of history has been lost to us and we have to be content with inferring actions that monarchs took from small finds of artifacts and a few texts.
Most monarchs in human history had the power of life or death over thier subjects and it was not considered newsworthy if they killed a few thousand because of a bad hair day. That was their role. No one questioned it or felt that there was anything unusual going on.
The difference between Roman civilization and our own is truly astonishing. Much time has passed, but specifically, the world became modern in the 1850s and big changes resulted that moved us from being sort of a successor of the Roman Republic to being something brand new.
Someone did the math on the “Slaughter of the Innocents” -— boys under 2, in Bethelehem, small town -— comes down to like 16 children.
While horrific, it’s hardly remarkable given the times such that it would be written down.
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