Posted on 10/14/2008 6:23:13 AM PDT by NYer
The Miracle of the Dancing Sun at Fatima which was seen by 70,000 people on October 13th, 1917 has been written about often. I truly do enjoy reading about all the "scientific" explanations for the "anomaly of Fatima." The way that science has bent itself into a pretzel to explain away the vision of the sun dancing in the sky at a foretold time is always fun.
So, last year, I got together my top ten "scientific explanations" for Fatima that I was able to find on the internet.
First I'll start with a little history history: A writer named Avelino de Almeida who wrote articles for O Século, (a big newspaper in Portugal at the time). The papper took a strong anti-religious stance. Goodness, even then, the media wasn't a big fan of religion, huh? In fact, all of Almeida's previous articles had mocked the previously reported events at Fatima but here's what he wrote that day 81 years ago:
"Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws — the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people."But despite the fact that one of their own reported this, secularists have amassed an enormous amount of explanations as to why we should not believe our own eyes. Here are the astounding reasons they've amassed so we should believe nothing at all special happened in Portugal that great day.
claims that the position of the phenomenon as described by the various witnesses, is at the wrong azimuth and elevation to have been the sun. He suggests the cause may have been a sundog. Sometimes referred to as a parhelion or "mock sun", a sundog is an atmospheric optical phenomenon associated with the reflection/refraction of sunlight by the numerous small ice crystals that make up cirrus or cirrostratus clouds. A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the "dancing sun". So Nickell further suggests an explanation for this phenomena may lie in temporary retinal distortion, caused by staring at the intense light and/or the effect of darting the eyes to and fro so as to avoid completely fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage and movement).So, in effect, 70,000 people all shook their heads and thought a mock-sun was dancing. All 70,000? Prety ridiculous, huh?
Quiz,You forgot to mention the part of the book where they found tiny aliens inside the web that was around parts of the apparitions.Forget about that.Let’s say we were all mass induced-how can you believe that we would do evil because of an apparition that is approved by the church.Are we robots?
Great topic...
but the Catholic Vote video that popped up at the top of the thread...
WOW...just WOW.
I’m misting up just watching it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61wj4tJICcc
Have you read even 10% of the quotes of our political, literary, media leaders since 1900 ref’d in my tagline at post #76 here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77
?????
Mass manipulations of the masses carefully structured and aided by the satanic supernatural or the ‘ET’s’ technologies can be very powerful persuaders, indeed. I do suspect that’s a topic I’m somewhat more professionally qualified to comment on than perhaps even you.
I don’t quite follow your asserttions and question. They seem rather disjointed and out of sync with my construction on reality.
I haven’t coughed up the money for the books having little income and other priorities. I’ve only read the excerpts on the net.
I’m not impressed at all by things approved by the Vatican/Roman bureaucracy as having value; being true. Too many such things have proven to be the opposite over the centuries—that is—having destructive value and being untrue.
Robots? There’s a lot of gullible folks of every value orientation.
All the more so when something dramatic and seemingly supernatural appears within their expectations and
THEIR “PERCEPTUAL SET” all primed, cocked and ready to receive such as authentically what they were yearning for and expecting.
1) I don’t know how much of the books I’d consider valid if I had them to read. The excerpts I read about the witnesses reports before they were distorted by the Jesuits and a lot of hoopla . . . were quite convincing.
2) I don’t know what your hangup thing is about robots.
3) INFLUENCE—persuasive INFLUENCE—does not require a robotic response per se. Often, all that’s necessary is a little nudge here and there to skew a person’s construction on reality in a desired direction. Doesn’t make the individuals concerned wholesale lock-step robots but does get them supporting the desired thing in the desired direction. And, makes them more vulnerable to such influences the next time.
4) I’m rather persistently dismayed (now that you seem so doggedly interested in robotic responses) of masses of people—I’m rather persistently dismayed at what comes across to this psychologist/sociologist as very robotic lock-step compliance in a list of ways WITHOUT A SHRED of critical thinking on the part of so many following the Vatican/Rome’s pontifications and edicts.
5) I have no personal evidence or puzzle pieces convincingly showing that there WERE or WERE NOT micro-aliens. An interesting idea. So now, folks can argue about how many aliens can stand on the head of a pin. Impressive.
Sinning and being in danger of hell because of the apparition is a possibility
GIVEN any number of plausible scenarios.
However, I don’t consider such a robotic certainty by any means—particularly for any given individual.
If we are talking about a million people, I’d assert that certainly, out of that million there are likely to be an unknown number who will be seriously vulnerable to satanic, demonic, evil forces influencing toward hell because of the seeds planted and the PERCEPTUAL SET GIVEN, INSTALLED, AIDED by the Fatima apparition.
All the more so if the Mary Caricature is to be enlisted in the service of the satanic global government—which would be highly probable IF the ET’s were really responsible for the whole Fatima phenomena as seem to be the most plausible explanation given the evidence I’ve read.
That’s quite a distortion.
I read extensive excerpts—pages and pages of excerpts.
NOT the whole books.
I didn’t read the evidence they provided layers and multiple sources for as
‘manipulated evidence.’
I can understand how someone with your biases would see it otherwise.
I remind you that for most of my 61 years, I considered Fatima to be more or less true as given in the Vatican version.
I’m not an idiot.
I’m not inexperienced.
I’m not an uncritical thinker.
I’m not low in IQ.
Something changed my mind.
It was the earliest, most candid Fatima evidence compared with a lot of stuff out of my 40+ years of studying the UFO phenomena.
You are free to deny whatever you wish about all that.
They did not come across to me as atheists nor as out to make a buck.
They came across to me as very curious about the subject and the more they investigated, the more they became determined to try and set the record straight.
You said if we believe in Fatima and The Blessed Mother some evil force was in charge of us .Hence we are robots with no free will.I said that your book that you were quoting from had a person who saw micro aliens from the web around the area and gosh that made you happy.Little aliens in the microscope.The strange thing is you never read the book which you could of picked up for a buck and now can not back up what what you said.I’ll send you all mine that I ordered from your suggestion -free.You go in circles Quix.
Change your mind back friend.These books are not for you.As a grownup and as a believer in Ufo’s if you read the books you would not back them because I know the people and have talked to them and have been there.The facts are not there as they report.
YET AGAIN YOU MANGLE MY WORDS.
This really does seem to be a habit of Vatican reps . . . mangling Scripture and Proddy words . . .
I did not.
I did NOT say that anyone who believed in Fatima &/or the authentic Mary had some evil force in charge of them.
I did NOT say that.
I do say that folks who believe in Fatima as promulgated by the church are at increased risk to follow ET/globalist pied pipers down the yellow brick road toward the global government and after it’s overtly present—to follow it’s edicts, religious explanations, constructions on reality that may well be buttressed by REPEAT PERFORMANCES quite similar to Fatima . . . including a personage purporting to be Mary, mother of Jesus, but who is an imposter.
I did not say that.
I did not think that.
I did not mean that.
Your words in my fingers do NOT fit.
WRONG. WHOLESALE WRONG. INACCURATE. FALSE.
My first thoughts/feelings about the micro aliens were surprise and incredulity.
Then some slight amusement trying to imagine such a thing.
Mostly, I found it silly but an interesting idea to ponder.
I believe I supported sufficiently what I said by the quotes Salvation? posted.
I can understand your conveniently ignoring that fact.
Fatima:
I’ll send you all mine that I ordered from your suggestion -free.You go in circles Quix.
You are welcome to do that. I don’t know if I’d get around to reading them very soon. They would be interesting to peruse.
The circles seem to be quite resident on your side, from my perspective.
Given your distortions of my words . . .
I can imagine how easy it must be to distort the Fatima phenomena into all manner of junk . . .
as well as a lot of other things.
Sorry,so the people who Fatima are fine.Thanks Quix:)
And didn’t it rain that day and make a muddy mess and then when the sun danced the ground dried instantly? I need to read the book I have about Fatima.
And didn’t it rain that day and make a muddy mess and then when the sun danced the ground dried instantly? I need to read the book I have about Fatima.
Examinations by Rev. Dr. Formigao 13 October 1917
Seminary professor Father Manuel Formigao of Santander examined the children after the apparition of October 13th, as he had done on two previous occasions. Later on he would conduct further examinations, covering most of the same territory as those of September and October 1917.
'Did our Lady appear again today in the Cova da Iria?"
"Yes"
"Was she dressed as on the other occasions?"
"She was dressed in the same way."
"Did St. Joseph and the Holy Child appear?"
"Yes."
"Did anyone else appear?"
"Our Lord appeared and blessed the people and our Lady of the two cards."
"What do you mean by our Lady of the two cards?"
"Our Lady appeared dressed like Our Lady of Sorrows but without the sword in her heart, and our Lady dressed---I don't quite know how, but I think it was Our Lady of Mount Carmel."
"They all came at the same time, did they not?"
"No. First I saw Our Lady of the Rosary, then St. Joseph and the Holy Child. After that I saw our Lord, then Our Lady of Sorrows and at the end what I think was Our Lady of Mount Carmel."
"Was the Holy Child standing or being carried by St. Joseph? "
"He was being carried by St. Joseph."
"Was He already a big child?"
"No. He was little."
"How old would He have been?"
"About a year."
"Why did you say that the Lady at one moment seemed to be dressed like Our Lady of Mount Carmel?"
"Because she had two things hanging from her hand."
"Did they appear on the oak tree?"
"No, they appeared near the sun, after the Lady had disappeared from the oak tree."
"Was our Lord standing?"
"I only saw Him from the waist."
"How long did the apparition on the oak tree last? Long enough to say the Rosary?"
"I don't think it was as long as that."
"Did the figures you saw in the sun last long?"
"No, only a short time."
"Did the Lady say who she was?"
"She said that she was the Lady of the Rosary."
"Did you ask what she wanted?"
"Yes."
"What did she say?"
"She said that we were to amend our lives and not offend our Lord any more because He was too much offended already, and that we were to say the Rosary and ask pardon for our sins."
"Did she say anything else?"
"She said that a chapel was to be built in the Cova da Iria."
"Where was the money to come from?"
"I think it would be what was left there."
"Did she say anything about our soldiers who were killed in the war?"
"No, she said nothing about them."
"Did she tell you to tell the people to look at the sun?"
"No."
"Did she say that the people were to do penance?"
"Yes."
"Did she use the word penance?"
"No. She said we were to say the Rosary and amend our lives and ask pardon of our Lord, but she did not use the word penance."
"When did the sign in the sun begin? Was it after the Lady disappeared?"
"Yes."
"Did you see the Lady come?"
"Yes."
"Where did she come from?"
"From the east."
"And the other times?"
"I didn't look the other times."
"Did you see her go?"
"Yes."
"In which direction?"
"To the east."
"How did she disappear?"
"Little by little."
"What disappeared first?"
"Her head. Then her body, and the last thing I saw was her feet."
"When she went did she go with her back toward or away from the people?"
"With her back toward the people."
"Did she take long to go?"
"Only a short time."
"Was she surrounded by any light?"
"I saw her in the middle of brilliant light. This time, too, she was blinding. Sometimes I had to rub my eyes."
"Will our Lady appear again?"
"I don't think so; she said nothing about it."
"Will you return to the Cova da Iria on the 13th?"
"No."
"Will our Lady do any miracles? Cure any sick people?"
"I don't know."
"Didn't you ask her anything?"
"I told her today that I had various petitions to give and she said she would grant some and not others."
"Did she say when she would grant them?"
"No."
"Under what title is the chapel of the Cova da Iria to be?"
"She said today that she was the Lady of the Rosary."
"Did she say that many people were to go there from all parts? "
"She didn't say that anybody was to go."
"Did you see the signs in the sun?"
"I saw it going round."
"Did you see signs on the oak tree?"
"No."
"When was the Lady the most beautiful, this time or on other occasions? "
"She was the same."
"How long was her dress?"
"It fell below the middle of her legs."
"What color was our Lady's dress when she was near the sun? "
"The mantle was blue and the dress white."
"And our Lord and St. Joseph and the Holy Child?"
"St. Joseph's was red and I think our Lord and the Child wore red too."
"When did you ask our Lady to make the people believe in her apparitions?"
"I asked her several times. I think the first time I asked was in June."
"When did she tell you the secret?"
"I think it was the second time."
whom did you see today when you were in the Cova da Iria?""Apart from our Lady,
"I saw St. Joseph and the Holy, Child."
"Where did you see them?"
"I saw them near the sun."
"What did the Lady say?"
"She said that we were to say the Rosary every day and that the war would end today."
"To whom did she say this?"
"To Lucia and to me. Francisco didn't hear."
"Did you hear her say when our soldiers would come back?"
"No."
"What else did she say?"
"She said that a chapel was to be built in the Cova da Iria."
"Where did the Lady come from?"
"From the east."
"And where did she go when she disappeared?"
"She went to the east."
"Did she go away backward facing the people?"
"No, she turned her back to the people."
"Did she say that she would come back to the Cova da Iria? "
"She said before that it was the last time she would come, and today, too, she said it was the last time."
"Did the Lady say anything else?"
"She said today that we were to say the Rosary every day to Our Lady of the Rosary."
"Where did she say that people were to say the Rosary?"
"She did not say where."
"Did she say that they were to go to the church?"
"She never said that."
"Where do you like to say the Rosary best; here, at home, or in the Cova da Iria,"
"In the, Cova da Iria."
"Why do you like to say it there?"
"I don't know."
"With what money did, the Lady say the chapel was to be built?"
"She said a chapel was to be built, but I don't know about the money."
"Did you look at the sun?"
"Yes."
"Did you see the signs?"
"Yes."
"Did the Lady tell you to look at the sun?"
"No."
"Then how did you see the signs?"
"I turned my eyes to the side."
"Was the Holy Child on the right or the left of St. Joseph? "
"On the right."
"Was he standing or being carried? "
"He was standing.'
"Did you see St. Joseph's right arm?"
"No,"
"How tall was the Child? Did His head come up to St. Joseph's chest? "
"He didn't reach St. Joseph's waist."
"How old do you think the Child was?"
"The age of Deolinda Neves." ( A child of about two years.)
"Did you see our Lady this time?"
"Yes."
"What Lady was she?"
"She was the Lady of the Rosary."
"How was she dressed?"
"She was dressed in white with a rosary in her hand."
"Did you see St. Joseph and the Holy Child?"
"Yes."
"Where did you see them?"
"By the sun."
"Was the Child being carried by St. Joseph or was He standing? Was He big or little?"
"He was little."
"Was He the size of Deolinda Neves?"
"Yes, He was just her size."
"Did the Lady hold her hands?"
"She had them joined."
"Did you only see her on the oak tree or by the sun as well?"
"I saw her near the sun too."
"Which was the brighter, the sun or the face of the Lady?"
"The Lady's face was brighter; she was white."
"Did you hear what the Lady said?"
"I heard nothing that she said."
"Who told you the secret; was it the Lady?"
"No, it was Lucia."
"Will you tell it?"
"No."
"You are afraid of being beaten by Lucia if you tell it, aren't you?"
"No."
"Then why don't you tell it? Is it a sin?"
"Perhaps it is a sin to tell the secret."
"Is the secret for the good of your soul, and Jacinta's and Lucia's soul?"
"Yes."
"Is it for the good of Father Ferreira's soul?"
"I don't know."
"Would the people be sad if they knew?"
"Yes."
"From which side did the Lady come?"
"From the east."
"And did she disappear in the same direction?"
"Yes, she went to the east."
"Did she go backward?"
"She turned her back to us."
"Did she go slowly or quickly?"
"Slowly."
"Did she walk as we do?"
"She didn't walk. She just went without moving her feet."
"What part of the Lady disappeared first?"
"The head."
"Did you see her easily this time?"
"I saw her better than last month."
"When was she most beautiful, now or the other times?"
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