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Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?
MRM ^ | Bill McKeever

Posted on 07/07/2008 3:34:44 AM PDT by Gamecock

Members of the LDS Church often make a big issue of the fact that their ancestors faced terrible persecutions during the early years of the LDS movement. To most people, Missourian sites like Independence, Liberty, Far West, and Caldwell County mean very little. Yet to the faithful Latter-day Saint, these places carry a great amount of significance.

It is true that the Mormons were driven from several states before finally arriving in what is known today as the state of Utah, and this violence can never be condoned. However, with all of the talk of the persecution early Mormons faced, there is rarely any discussion as to the role played by the Mormons in those early years. To be sure, the average Mormon has no idea that both sides had their share of abuses in human rights. To many Latter-day Saints, their forebears were simply innocent victims.

It would be wrong to say that the Mormons were treated badly simply because they had theological disagreements with their new neighbors. In his book The Mormon Hierarchy - Origins of Power, former LDS historian D. Michael Quinn wrote,

"Fear of being overwhelmed politically, socially, culturally, economically by Mormon immigration was what fueled anti-Mormonism wherever the Latter-day Saints settled during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Religious belief, as non-Mormons understood it, had little to do with anti-Mormonism. On the other hand, by the mid-1830s Mormons embraced a religion that shaped their politics, economics and society. Conflict was inevitable" (p.91).

On page 82 of the book, The Story of the Latter-day Saints, LDS historians James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard wrote, "Impressed by the Mormon image of group solidarity, some old settlers expressed fears that as a group the Mormons were determined to take over all of their lands and business."

In his book, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, historian Stephen C. LeSueur notes that "non-Mormon land speculators could not hope to compete with the Mormons, who were purchasing large tracts of land with Church funds," and that the huge immigration of Mormons to the area also "threatened to displace older towns as the political and commercial centers for their counties" (p.3).

Arrogance on the part of the Mormon settlers certainly did not help the situation. As Allen and Leonard write,

"The Saints themselves may not have been totally without blame in the matter. The feelings of the Missourians, even though misplaced, were undoubtedly intensified by the rhetoric of the gathering itself. They were quick to listen to the boasting of a few overzealous Saints who too-loudly declared a divine right to the land. As enthusiastic millennialists, they proclaimed that the time of the gentiles was short, and they were perhaps too quick to quote the revelation that said that 'the Lord willeth that the disciples and the children of men should open their hearts, even to purchase this whole region of country, as soon as time will permit" (The Story of the Latter-day Saints, p. 83).

Smith's leadership didn't help ease the tension. For instance, when First Counselor Sidney Rigdon gave a fiery "Fourth of July Oration" (1838) that threatened the state of Missouri with what he called a "war of extermination," Smith made this speech into a pamphlet. Also adding to the Missourians distress were the rumors of Mormon "Danites," a secret band of Mormon hit men known to intimidate non-Mormon "Gentiles" and LDS dissenters.

The acts of violence brought against the Mormon settlers and the fact that the Mormons felt they would not receive proper redress compelled them to retaliate. Writes LeSueur,

"Although Mormon military action was generally initiated in response to reports of violence, the Mormons tended to overreact and in some instances retaliated against innocent citizens. Their perception of themselves as the chosen people, their absolute confidence in their leaders, and their determination not to be driven out led Mormon soldiers to commit numerous crimes. The Mormons had many friends among the Missourians, but their military operations undercut their support in the non-Mormon community" (The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, p.4).

LeSueur believes much of the blame for the "plundering and burning committed by Mormon soldiers in Daviess County" can be laid at the feet of Joseph Smith himself.

I have heard Latter-day Saints justify these actions by saying the frustrations experienced by the Saints would seem to warrant retaliation. While I may sympathize with their desire to "respond in kind," we must keep in mind that in doing so the moral high ground is lost. Once you lower yourself to the level of your enemy, you can no longer claim to be guiltless in the situation. This, unfortunately, is what many Mormons do.

Attempts to get along in Missouri proved fruitless. Both sides blamed the other, and each claimed to be the defender rather than the aggressor. The violence came to a head in late 1838 when a group of Missouri militia, led by Captain Samuel Bogart, moved through Ray County disarming Mormon settlers and ordering them to leave. Reports circulated among the Mormons that Bogart's men had burned and plundered several Mormon homes in their two-day march. Though there is no evidence to support this claim, LeSueur writes that it was readily believed by Mormon leaders (p.133).

On October 24, two Mormon spies were captured by Bogart's men and taken to their camp on Crooked River. In response, a band of over 50 Mormons, led by LDS Apostle David Patten, engaged in a firefight with Bogart's men. When the Mormons drew their swords and charged the camp, the militia fled, leaving one dead and another man wounded. Patten himself was mortally wounded in the battle. Two Mormon soldiers, coming upon the wounded and unconscious militiaman by the name of Samuel Tarwater, mercilessly mutilated the man's face with their swords and left him for dead.

When listing the atrocities brought against the LDS people in Missouri, the massacre at Haun's Mill always seems to come to the forefront. Speaking of the persecution faced by Mormons in the past, LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote:

"We have staggered under the iron fist of persecution during our whole latter-day history, and we know that hatred and ill will and death will continue to be spewed out upon us until the coming end of the world. We have been driven and scourged and slain; the blood of our prophets stains Illinois; at Haun's Mill the innocent blood of the martyrs for truth cries unto the Lord of Hosts; and on frozen and desolate hills, across half a continent, lie the lonely graves of suffering saints who chose death in preference to the creeds of compulsion of a decadent Christendom" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 656-657).

McConkie's dramatic rhetoric fails to take into account the fact that the Haun's Mill massacre took place just one week after the battle of Crooked River. Quinn writes:

"A generally unacknowledged dimension of both the extermination order and the Haun's Mill massacre, however, is that they resulted from Mormon actions in the Battle of Crooked River. Knowingly or not, Mormons had attacked state troops, and this had a cascade effect… upon receiving news of the injuries and death of state troops at Crooked River, Governor Boggs immediately drafted his extermination order on 27 October 1838 because the Mormons 'have made war upon the people of this state.' Worse, the killing of one Missourian and mutilation of another while he was defenseless at Crooked River led to the mad-dog revenge by Missourians in the slaughter at Haun's Mill" (Origins of Power, p.100).

The Mormons would eventually be forced to leave Missouri and settle in Nauvoo, Illinois. Controversy, however, would not disappear. When Smith became the target in a newspaper known as the Nauvoo Expositor, he ordered the destruction of the press. This action caused no small disturbance, and in order to insure order, Smith called out his standing army (The Nauvoo Legion) and placed the city under martial law. Illinois Governor Ford felt the only way the problem could be solved was by a trial to be held in Carthage, the county seat. Although Smith was in the process of fleeing to the west, he was persuaded by friends to turn himself in. A gripping tale of persecution and unjust imprisonment is told during the tour of the Carthage Jail. The guide tells how Joseph Smith claimed that he was going to Carthage as a "lamb to the slaughter" (D&C

135:4). However, such a description of Joseph Smith's final moments is hardly close to the truth, as John Taylor's account in volume seven of the Documentary History of the Church shows:

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, `Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket. The pistol was a six-shooting revolver, of Allen's patent; it belonged to me, and was one that I furnished to Brother Wheelock when he talked of going with me to the east, previous to our coming to Carthage…I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs. The other brethren had seen the same, for, as I went to the door, I found Brother Hyrum Smith and Dr. Richards already leaning against it, They both pressed against the door with their shoulders to prevent its being opened, as the lock and latch were comparatively useless. While in this position, the mob, who had come upstairs, and tried to open the door, probably thought it was locked, and fired a ball through the keyhole; at this Dr. Richards and Brother Hyrum leaped back from the door, with their faces towards it; almost instantly another ball passed through the panel of the door, and struck Brother Hyrum on the left side of the nose, entering his face and head. At the same instant, another ball from the outside entered his back, passing through his body and striking his watch. The ball came from the back, through the jail window, opposite the door, and must, from its range, have been fired from the Carthage Greys, who were placed there ostensibly for our protection, as the balls from the firearms, shot close by the jail, would have entered the ceiling, we being in the second story, and there never was a time after that when Hyrum could have received the latter wound. Immediately, when the ball struck him, he fell flat on his back, crying as he fell, `I am a dead man!' He never moved afterwards. I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, `Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died, I had in my hands a large, strong hickory stick, brought there by Brother Markham, and left by him, which I had seized as soon as I saw the mob approach; and while Brother Joseph was firing the pistol, I stood close behind him" (pp. 101-103).

Having taken this tour twice (once in 1980 and another in 1998), I noticed that both times the mention of the smuggled gun was left out. In fact, when the subject of the gun was brought up in the 1998 tour by a Christian in the crowd, we were told that it was not smuggled (it was "brought in") and that the shootout was not a "gun battle." This is an incredible game of semantics. The fact that Smith did try to defend himself disqualifies him from being described in the same manner as our Lord during His arrest, trial, and death (Acts 8:32).

After Smith's demise, things would be quiet for a time. Eventually, however, troubles between the Mormons and their Gentile neighbors would resurface. With little hope to see things resolved, plans were being made by the LDS leadership to leave Illinois. On August 23, 1845, a strategy was approved for an expedition beyond the Rocky Mountains. The first company, composed of 143 men, 3 women, and 2 children, would leave in mid-April. Three and a half months later they would arrive in the Salt Lake Valley.

Even with my strong views regarding the errors of the Mormon faith, I will be the first to denounce religious persecution, as it is properly defined, against any people, Mormons included. I say properly defined because many Mormons feel that any verbal disagreement with their faith is a type of persecution. However, it gets a little tiring to hear of Mormons constantly pointing to their 19th Century persecutions as if this is some sort of sign of God's divine approval on the LDS Church. If violence against a certain faith were the only way to determine truth, then certainly the Mormons themselves would have to recognize that our Christian faith was just as viable as theirs. Can a Mormon, off the top of his head, recall when the last Mormon was killed just because he was a Mormon? Certainly we have heard of Mormons being tragically killed while serving missions, but these cases involve circumstances other than true martyrdom (robberies, car accidents, being mistaken for CIA agents, etc). On the other hand, it is not uncommon to hear of Christians around the world who are being killed because they refuse to denounce their belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. While martyrdom seems to be a thing of the past for the Mormons, it is a common occurrence among those who have placed their total trust in the Jesus of the Bible.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: christian; history; lds; mormon
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To: Old Mountain man; Colofornian; Osage Orange
Post #70 by Colofornian addresses the "lynch mob" charge.

As to Smith, he was in no way in Jesus' league in terms of martyrdom.

Christ was led to the cross as a lamb to slaughter. _____________________________________________________________

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7

____________________________________________________________________

Smith went out with his gun (who has a gun in prison?) blazing.

__________________________________________________________________

In the History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 617-18, the following account is given concerning Smith's death: "...there was... a discharge of three or four firearms.... Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter… he discharged his six-shooter in the stairway… two or three barrels of which missed fire. "Joseph,… dropped his pistol on the floor, and sprang into the window..." John Taylor, who became the 3rd president of the church, testified that Joseph Smith "snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3)

__________________________________________________________________

Moreover, Jesus was innocent of all the charges against Him.

Does not even LDS literature acknowledge that Smith ordered the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper that exposed his polygamy?

As far as the Inverted Pentagram, I am guessing you don't want to address it?

That's fine, and your prerogative.

81 posted on 07/08/2008 12:06:01 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: SkyPilot

There was no trial, therefore both Jesus and Joseph were not guilty.

Your mind reading tactic is failing you, as usual. I gave my reasons and I, unlike some people on this thread, am an honorable man and do not lie about things.


82 posted on 07/08/2008 12:14:41 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Old Mountain man; Godzilla; P-Marlowe; Zakeet
There was no trial, therefore both Jesus and Joseph were not guilty.

Jesus was actually hauled before 7 trials.

The Seven Trials of Jesus

I would have preferred that Smith was tried as well.

OJ Simpson had a trial. Do you believe he was not guilty?

True guilt or innocence will be determined by God at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Given the historical and empirical evidence that I have seen, I can make the determination that Smith was guilty of many crimes.

Your mind reading tactic is failing you, as usual.

What "mind reading" are you referring to?

As far as the Inverted Pentagram, I am guessing you don't want to address it? That's fine, and your prerogative.

That sounded like a question and an acknowledgment to me. I'll let others chime in if they care to.

I, unlike some people on this thread, am an honorable man and do not lie about things.

If you want to accuse people on this thread of being "dishonorable", why don't you just come out and name them and give your reasons for such a charge? If you are referring to me specifically, I will answer it.

Moreover, I won't accuse you of lying "about things", but I do believe you have been deceived by the LDS teachings.

83 posted on 07/08/2008 12:39:17 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: All

Using Mormon logic presented on this thread, the lunatics who killed thousands on September 11, 2001 never stood trial and are thus not guilty.


84 posted on 07/08/2008 12:51:44 PM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: Old Mountain man
I gave my reasons and I, unlike some people on this thread, am an honorable man

ROFLOL!!

That's rich...!

Please don't hose me...OMM

85 posted on 07/08/2008 2:34:04 PM PDT by Osage Orange (DO NOT POST TO ME AGAIN...!!!)
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To: Osage Orange

Just checking to see if they had closed this one down yet, too. BBgunner must be busy with somethin’ else.


86 posted on 07/08/2008 7:44:48 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

LOL...

I could make a few guesses...


87 posted on 07/08/2008 7:57:55 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: seemoAR
How about do a search on the first time a mob tarred and feathered Joseph Smith and killed his infant son. The mob included a baptist minister. Apparently back then "pro-life" meant only in utero as the babies were free game. Or do a search on Huan's Mill to find the affadavit which is part of the public record about the age of the youngest mormon child killed there. Or you could do a search about the Mormon women who were tied to church benches and raped by "so-called" Christians. Or the 500 people most of the age newborn-5 yrs. who died as a result of the forced winter exodus in Winter Quarters Cemetary. Or do a search on the Extermination order in missouri.

In Mountain Meadows they spared those under 6 years of age. I am not arguing moral equivalence with mountain meadows. it was murder and was wrong and the leader was shot by a firing squad and rightly so. IMO, even more of teh participants should have been executed as well. But it is interesting that the article does not address any of these relevant points in any depth.

What is really interesting is that there are so called conservatives who fail to understand the significance and want to justify or turn a blind eye to some of the worst constitutional violations againt life liberty, property and religion that occured against Mormon US citizens in our nations history.

Then there is the political factor which nobody seems to address. Joseph Smith was killed a month after he declared his presidential candidacy by the Democratic Governors. Gov. Ford refers to himself as Pontius Pilate over the matter in his history. It took a Republican Governor in 1976 to officially apologize for the Constitutionaal violations perpetuated against mormons and rescind the Extermination order which was still on the law books.

88 posted on 07/09/2008 3:33:33 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: SkyPilot
The five pointed star is a Christian symbol that has been co-opted and imbued with satanic meaning in the 20th century. in the 1800's it was recognized by all Christians to mean the star of Bethlehem, (epiphany) or referring to the five suffering of Christ. In much the same way the rainbow or "sign of the Covenant between God and Noah" has been co-opted by the gay rights movement.

Any Christian in the 1800's who saw them on the Nauvoo temple, which was built then, would have understood the plain meaning and references to Christ. The advances of secularism and liberalism in the US today are so bad that we get FReepers who do not recognize their own Christian symbols and their meaning.

89 posted on 07/09/2008 3:54:36 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Gamecock
....to be sure, the average Mormon has no idea that both sides had their share of abuses in human rights. To many Latter-day Saints, their forebears were simply innocent victims.

Mormons never claimed to be pacifists. And contrary to the authors agenda most modern Mormons are well aware of the facts of their own history. LDS missionary tour guides openly and plainly discuss Joseph Smith firing back at the mob who invaded the jail to kill him. They tell this to Mormons and non Mormons alike. Or if you want a more historical account with citations you can read Bushman's book "Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling" which openly discusses the issue that Mormons were not pacifists in the conflict with their neighbors.

What is interesting is that defense of one's person with guns is something that is supported and lauded by most conservatives and FReepers. Joseph Smith should be hailed as a hero for shooting back at the mob of over 200 men who came to murder him. The best accounts of the murder of Joseph come from the jailer who was responsible for the safety of his ward but sensibly stood aside when the mob of 200 threatened to kill him too. It is an objective account of the actions that day.

What is really interesting about this article is to see so called conservatives argue against their own values when it comes to guns and constitutional rights just to engage in a little Mormon bashing.

90 posted on 07/09/2008 4:11:05 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Rameumptom
the first time a mob tarred and feathered Joseph Smith and killed his infant son.

Perhaps it is you who needs to search. Joseph was pulled from his home during the night in order that law abiding men teach him a lesson about deflowering a certain young woman (Nancy Marinda Johnson)while Smith was still married to Emma. I wish they would have gone the whole way and as the Apostle Paul says, "emasculated" him, for Smith was that vile in his conquest of young women all while being married to Emma. Some authors have stated the motivation is recorded by Symonds Ryder, a participant in the event, who felt Smith was plotting to take property from members of the community and a company of citizens violently warned Smith that they would not accept those actions.

As for the child. It was not Joseph Smith's child, but one of a set of twins left to Emma to care for after the death of their own mother. The twins had contacted measles, and one of them had already died from the effects. The child who died after the attack on Joseph died of a common childhood illness. Exposure of a few minutes due to an open door does not kill a child. Mormons try to blame the death of the child on the mob to inflame passions of sympathy for the con-man Smith.....it is simply more PR hype from them. I wish they could speak the truth. I doubt if many actually know it.

91 posted on 07/09/2008 5:39:32 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: colorcountry; Rameumptom

The record of the event by Joseph Smith. Even he doesn’t mention any “death” of a child caused by the mob, but I did learn that both twins were alive at the time of the tar and feathering.

http://www.mormonhistoricsitesregistry.org/USA/ohio/hiram/johnsonFarm/stories/johnsonFarm1.htm


92 posted on 07/09/2008 5:54:38 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Gamecock
It is true that the Mormons were driven from several states before finally arriving in what is known today as the state of Utah, and this violence can never be condoned.

Oh bull!

A LOT of them stayed in Missouri and prospered!

That group now has title to properties that the bunch in SLC salivate to have!

93 posted on 07/09/2008 6:24:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
You know, I find all this fascinating, but I also tend to agree with the LDS folks, for totally different reasons though.

Smith and Company should have not been attacked like they were, the reactions diluted the position of those seeking justice. We see it all the time, even here on FR at times. Those in the right too impatient to act strategically and let the truth win out, falling to their emotions instead of calmly pushing through to the win. The “mobs” were right to react to the actions of these folks, but they should have let it run it's course. They ended up creating a martyr instead of an exposed con man and criminal. In their actions they gave these folks cover to continue, and gave them something to claim victim hood over.

The mormons violated almost ad nauseum what in modern terms is the concept of “don't start none, won't be none”. Time and history would have been better served if the reaction to what the mormons (mainly Smith and the boys) started was a little better played.

94 posted on 07/09/2008 6:25:47 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Zakeet
"If the people [of Missouri] come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Quran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us – Joseph Smith or the Sword" – Joseph Smith, Jr. History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167.

My!!

This is very much TODAY's news!!

Old A-dim-nut-job of IRAN Saber Missile rattling about how he will ATTACK anyone who DARES to try and stop his plans!

95 posted on 07/09/2008 6:28:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
---
96 posted on 07/09/2008 6:31:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Old Mountain man
Lynch mob of protestants killed him, his brother, etc.

Mostly BAPTISTS; I'll bet!

97 posted on 07/09/2008 6:32:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
So Mormon leaders from the top down engaged in suppression of a free press?

FAIRLDS...

98 posted on 07/09/2008 6:34:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Old Mountain man
I, for one, have no intention of doing enough research to do so. If you are so curious, look it up. The subject is lynch mobs of protestants.
#4
 
 
 

                       Standard LDS responses to data put to them:
 

Shorthand

Reference:

1. How you interpret it is wrong...

(Need a source)

2. You are too ignorant to really understand it because you are not a member....

(Need a source)

3. You're not qualified to judge because you're no LONGER a member...

(Need a source)

4. You are just a bigot for bringing the whole ugly truth to light ...

(Need a source)

5. So’s yer Mama!

(Need a source)

6. Laugh it all off and post some silly image.

(Need a source)

7. Jump down the rabbit hole; Alice!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=683#683

8. Bait & Switch

(Need a source)

9. The OTHER 'half' of the truth is what we are avoiding.

(Need a source)

10. "I Know It When I See It"

(Need a source)

11. Hand waving...

(Need a source)

12. YOU play defense for a while.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=944#944

13. HEE Hee hee... let's get the Calvinists and the Arminians fighting!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1994515/posts?page=15#15

14. GREAT FUN! Let's get the Catholics and the Protestants fighting!

(Need a source)

15. Huh? Did you say something?

(Need a source)

16. If I repeat this enough times some folks will be fooled into thinking it's true.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1997522/posts?page=2252#2252

17. Playing dumb.

(Need a source)

18. Refusing to answer because your ATTITUDE offends them.

(Need a source)

19. (Let's see if they'll fall for the 'Defend a freak' ploy.)

(Need a source)

20. And the MOST used...  IGNORE what they posted and answer the question that SHOULD have been asked.

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8

21. Threatening other FReepers with legal action because they annoy you with facts. (E-Danite-ism)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2008967/posts?page=335#335

 
 
 
 
 
" The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success
unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -
- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

99 posted on 07/09/2008 6:36:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rameumptom
Any Christian in the 1800's who saw them on the Nauvoo temple, which was built then, would have understood the plain meaning and references to Christ.

I guess we'll now be shown pictures of STARS on Christian churches; right?

100 posted on 07/09/2008 6:39:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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