Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?
MRM ^ | Bill McKeever

Posted on 07/07/2008 3:34:44 AM PDT by Gamecock

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240241-257 last
To: Old Mountain man

the lynching at Carthage
________________________________________

Who got lynched at Carthage ?????


241 posted on 07/11/2008 10:54:24 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 240 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith. Others shot down and wounded. That’s called history.


242 posted on 07/11/2008 11:00:53 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 241 | View Replies]

To: Old Mountain man

Are you saying that Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith got lynched at Carthage ?????

Got a source for that ???????????


243 posted on 07/11/2008 11:11:39 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 242 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

Murder by mob equals lynching. What is your problem?


244 posted on 07/11/2008 11:21:21 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 243 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
The American euphemism is ‘lynch mob’. A lynch mob is a murderous mob, regardless of whom makes up the mob or whether a rope is used to murder the incarcerated without a trial. ... Since the charges against Smith were instigated by Mormons who were Smith's closest advisers of the time, I still think there may have been Mormons in the mob. But it would still be an illegal mob, euphemistically called a lynch mob.
245 posted on 07/11/2008 1:14:58 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 241 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN

Strangely enough, there was a trial in Carthage. The following were indicted and tried for the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith:

Thomas C. Sharp - Methodist, lawyer and yellow journalist
Mark Aldrich - Land speculator and Major in command of local militia that attacked the Carthage Jail.
William N. Grover - Captain of the Warsaw Cadets militia who ordered the attack on the jail
Jacob C. Davis - Lawyer, Captain of the Warsaw Rifle Company private militia that attacked the jail.
Levi Williams - Baptist preacher, Colonel in Illinois Militia.

There were two juries selected. The first jury had some LDS members empaneled and was dismissed.

All were acquitted when all Mormons were excluded from the second jury.

Above information from Wikipedia.


246 posted on 07/11/2008 6:55:30 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 245 | View Replies]

To: Old Mountain man

So, are you trying to assert the ‘mob’ had only seven people in it? ... The five you listed and the two who died from Smith’s gun shots? Is there some other means by which we can know there were no MOmrons in the ‘mob’? Are you aware of whom it was who brought charges against Smith that got him incarcerated?


247 posted on 07/11/2008 7:07:26 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 246 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN

Actually, there were either three or four that were shot by Smith. There is no first hand evidence whatsoever that they died. The only evidence in history is that John Taylor was told that two had died. Four were indicted but were never arrested. Some witnesses said that there were upwards of two hundred in the attack. Some witnesses also said that the militia that was ordered by the governor to guard the jail joined the mob in the attack.

What we actually have is a prime example of the local law officials being on the side of the mob. This is a familiar situation to those of us from the deep south. Sad but familiar. The most amazing thing is that there were even indictments.


248 posted on 07/11/2008 7:52:25 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 247 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
A grand jury of non mormons refused to indict Porter Rockwell for the attempted murder of Boggs. He was locked up without trial for a few months and the guards let him go eventually, as you admit they "graciously let him go." Rockwells' comment to the grand jury was that Boggs was still alive, implying that if he had done it Boggs would definitely be dead. Considering that a grand jury of that sort can indict a ham samdwich if they wanted they pretty much knew it wasn't him. There are actually a few people it could be if you read Boggs own diary and the writings of his son, they had many enemies.

BTW, you shouldn't try to slander Orrin Rockwell he was a better gunslinger and law enforcement officer than Wyatt Earp. He was the best in the west no one can hold a candle to him. Its too bad more conservatives don't know the history of this man. Whatis interesting is that you have sided with a Dem. Governor who committed some of the worst consitutional and murderous crimes against US citizens in our history while slandering one of the best, honest and most conservative law enforcement men in history. That's the problem with the majority of your anti Mormons agruments. After a while one has to wonder why you continue to take the liberal tack on a conserative website?

249 posted on 07/14/2008 3:13:14 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 228 | View Replies]

To: Rameumptom

My Great-great and so on great grandfather Joseph Leland Heywood was the first US Marshall in the Utah territory. Rockwell was his deputy.

Orrin Porter Rockwell was evil. That’s a fact! That you can’t/won’t see it says a lot about you.


250 posted on 07/14/2008 3:20:18 PM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 249 | View Replies]

To: Rameumptom; ejonesie22; Old Mountain man; Tennessee Nana; MHGinTN; colorcountry; Osage Orange; ...
Rockwells' comment to the grand jury was that Boggs was still alive, implying that if he had done it Boggs would definitely be dead.

Try again, this time considering a more full range of Rockwell’s later comments:

“I shot through the window and thought I had killed him [Boggs], but I had only wounded him; I was damned sorry that I had not killed the son of a bitch.” [Orrin Porter Rockwell, in Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder, by Harold Schindler, 1966 version, p. 80]

Even a July, 1984 BYU studies book review (http://byustudies.byu.edu/Reviews/Pages/reviewdetail.aspx?reviewID=445) brought out another comment from Schindler’s book, which BTW, the BYU reviewer labeled Schindler’s book as “as near as we shall likely come to a definitive biography of Rockwell…”: According to Schindler’s research for his ’83 book, Rockwell also said: "If I shot Boggs, they have to prove it" (Schindler, 1983 version of book, p. 72).

{Gee. Now we know where O.J. Simpson’s almost published “If I Did It” book received it’s working title inspiration!]

Considering that a grand jury of that sort can indict a ham samdwich if they wanted they pretty much knew it wasn't him.

Knowing and having evidence-to-convict are two different things, especially in a CSI-less mid-19th century.

There are actually a few people it could be if you read Boggs own diary and the writings of his son, they had many enemies.

(Yeah, and O.J. is still looking for his ex-wife’s killers)

Whatis interesting is that you have sided with a Dem. Governor who committed some of the worst consitutional and murderous crimes against US citizens in our history…one has to wonder why you continue to take the liberal tack on a conserative website?

(Oh, so anyone posting something on the assassination (not their policies or practices) of Democrats like John F. Kennedy and his brother, Robert, is automatically taking a “liberal” perspective? You make it sound like whether we should be pro-assassination or anti-assassination depends upon the political track record of the politician. That’s nuts! I can’t believe that no matter who the trigger-man was, that you would trash the assassination victim and not say nary a negative word about his trigger-man – whoever he was).

…while slandering one of the best, honest and most conservative law enforcement men in history…you shouldn't try to slander Orrin Rockwell he was a better gunslinger and law enforcement officer than Wyatt Earp. He was the best in the west no one can hold a candle to him. Its too bad more conservatives don't know the history of this man.

Hey, I like the color of your lenses (rose-colored). First of all, let’s take a look at the oath that Rockwell the Danite (& others) took in Missouri: “I from this day declare myself the Avenger of the blood of those innocent men, and the innocent cause of Zion.” (Danite pledge to the Prophet, Alanson Ripley to “Dear brethren in Christ Jesus,” with Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Caleb Baldwin, Alexander McRae, and Lyman Wight identified by initials at end of letter, April 10, 1839, see Hill, Quest for Refuge, p. 100 and Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p. 113)

So, did that make some of these Danites assassination-happy?

“If Joseph should tell me to kill [U.S. President Martin] Van Buren... I would immediately start and do my best to assassinate him [and] let the consequences be as they would.” (Alexander McRae, in Reed Peck, Reed Peck Manuscript, p. 3)

The BYU Studies 1984 review of Schindler’s 1983 revision notes that Rockwell was a “bartender…accussed assassin of two handfuls of men (and women)…guerrilla…barroom brawler… Also noted was that his first wife left him and his first plural wife is never heard from again after he left Nauvoo. Oh, and before he left Nauvoo, his final act of Illinois vengeance was to kill the man who was supposed to have protected Joseph Smith when Smith was killed the prior year. As Schindler put it:

”…Rockwell shot and killed Frank A. Worrell, who was menacing Hancock County Sheriff Jacob Backenstos. Rockwell had been hastily deputized only moments before the shooting, a fact which made the incident no less sensational when it was learned that the dead man had been the militia lieutenant in charge of protecting Joseph Smith when the Mormon prophet was assassinated the year before.” (http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/r/ROCKWELL,ORIN.html )

The Salt Lake Tribune in Rockwell’s obituary said that he had participated in at least 100 murders, and, in fact, Rockwell died awaiting trial for the murder of 2-5 of the 6 in the Aiken party heading to California…in 1857… [Wow, 1857 was sure a banner year for Mormon massacres with Mountain Meadows thrown in the mix!]

Even aside from his association with many murders, it’s sure surprising to hear a Word-of-Wisdom Mormon like yourself label him as “one of the best, honest, and conservative law enforcement men in history.” It’s not like his alcohol ways mellowed as he aged. Described in his later years by George Alfred Townsend, A well-known journalist, George A. Townsend, said of Rockwell in his “latter” years was: "…a fat, curly-haired, good-natured chap, fond of a drink, a talk, and a wild venture" (Townsend, p. 359).

Besides the Aiken party and likely—based upon his own statements--the Missouri ex-governor, look at some of Rockwell’s alleged victims:

Even the BYU studies reviewer gave a partial who’s who list of likely Rockwell victims: In the matters of the deaths of the Aiken party, of an unidentified female gossip in Nauvoo (105), of Henry Jones and his mother (accused of incest), of John Tobin, Dr. John King Robinson, Thomas Colbourn (a black), Joachim Johnston, Myron Brewer, Kenneth and Alexander McRae, and John Gheen, and even in the unexplained deaths of Mormon outlaws John P. Smith and Moroni Clawson, killed after they were captured, Schindler must leave the details hidden in the folds of history; and he likewise leaves the reader not only to conjecture as to Rockwell's guilt or innocence but also to agree that Rockwell was "utterly incapable of exorcising the specter of violence" which dogged his life.

Let’s look at some of those names – Jones and his mother; Colbourn (Coleman); and John P. Smith and Moroni Clawson:
1858: Henry Jones and his mother become among many Mormon “blood atonement” victims after allegations emerged that Jones, a Mormon, committed incest with his mother.
early Jan, 1862: During the revolving door 1860s of territorial governors in Utah, one of them –Dawson—attempted to beat a retreat after being there only three weeks…but as he journeyed, he was accosted by 7 members of Bill Hickman’s gang (Hickman being Rockwell’s “rival” for The Leading Mormon Avenging Angel Hall of Fame)…Dawson was nearly killed. Rockwell & his posse shot 1 youth dead & they took two others in. Supposedly, the two made a break for it & were killed…but Hickman noted that their bodies were powder-burnt and one was shot in the face…(what? Did he make a break running backwards?)
Dec. 10, 1866: A Mormon-“owned” slave or ex-slave, Thomas Coleman, also known as Thomas Colbourn, who fellowshipped with Utah Mormons, was lured to his apparent blood atonement death…based on the types of wounds he had.

Henry Jones & His Mother

According to http://www.waltermartin.com/jones.html#byjones: Jones, a Mormon, returned to Salt Lake City from California and shortly thereafter was accused of incest with his own mother. The church authorities had no desire to wash such soiled linen in the courts of the land and Jones' punishment was referred to Rockwell and the Danites. Jones was encountered in a saloon, the Avengers drank with their victim until he was maudlin, and then enticed him to an outlying section of the city. He was overpowered, bound and gagged. Porter Rockwell castrated him. Jones recovered from the operation and, with his mother, attempted to escape to California. Porter and several other Danites followed them to Payson, sixty miles south of Salt Lake City, and there cut the mother's throat and shot the son. They then "pulled the building down upon the bodies and there they lie today." [Quotes from “Achilles” narrative…Judge Cradlebaugh outlined the grand jury charge at Provo March 8, 1859…see Stenhouse, T.B.H, p. 405]

Ex-Utah Territorial Gov. Dawson and Hickman’s Thugs

According to (Ex)-Governor Dawson’s Statement, dated Jan. 7, 1862 at Bear River Station, Utah (printed in Deseret News, Jan. 22, 1862, p. 2), apparently, at least two Mormon youths, with some assistance from others, brutally beat Dawson nearly to death--kicking and beating him about the head, chest and groin (and according to some reports, cut off one of his testicles). As one researcher put it, “Fearful that Salt Lake would be seen as utterly out of government control, the Salt Lake sheriff James Ferguson and his deputies began rounding up the perpetrators.”

Then, according to: http://www.mosesclawson.com/showdocument.asp?q=31&p=1&t=A+History+of+Moroni+Clawson: …indictments were issued for the arrest of Lott Huntington, Moroni Clawson, John M., Jason and Wilford Luce, Wood Reynolds, and Isaac Neibaur. Two weeks later, Giles Mottin, an Overland Mail Company employee, reported the loss of $800 from a tin box hidden in Townsend's stable. Suspicion at once centered on Lott Huntington and John P. Smith, for whom warrants were issued. Lott Huntington and John P. Smith stole a horse "Brown Sal" from John Bennion who was at tithing settlement. John's son Sam was angry at the loss and with some friends tried to follow the outlaws. As Huntington and Smith left town, they went to Willow Creek and convinced Moroni that he should go to California with them because of the arrest warrant out for him. They left, three men and only two horses, one man walking. (Moroni left his horse with his family.) Moroni would not ride the new horse not knowing if it was theirs. Porter Rockwell's help was enlisted and he followed them to Faust's mail station in Rush Valley. He and a posse surrounded the station in the cold night and waited until morning. On being told to give up, Lott Huntington came out guns ready, he was a crack shot so no one gave him a target. He went to the corral and got Brown Sal. While lifting the logs to get out, Brown Sal bolted leaving Lott vulnerable and Porter shot him dead. Clawson and Smith gave up. Porter took Lott's body and the two others back to Salt Lake City by stage the next day, 17 January. In Salt Lake City, Porter turned Clawson and Smith over to four Salt Lake City Police and went to care for his horse. He heard shots and went out to find them both dead "trying to escape". Bill Hickman saw the bodies and wrote in Brigham's Destroying Angels, "They were both powder-burnt, and one of them was shot in the face. How could that be, and they running?"…[Stenhouse, in his book, Rocky Mountain Saints, p. 419, commented]: The Salt Lake police then earned the reputation of affording every desperate prisoner the opportunity of escape, and, if embraced, the officer's ready revolver brought the fugitive to a "halt," and saved the county the expense of a trial and his subsequent boarding in the penitentiary. A coroner's inquest and cemetery expenses were comparatively light.

African American Thomas Coleman, aka Thomas Colbourne

In 1863, Brigham Young preached:

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 110.)

Apparently, rumors were circulating that Thomas Coleman, aka Colbourn, was “in the company of a white woman” according to the jury convened on his death (though no eyewitnesses to such a report was identified).

While I don’t agree with a number of jane-come-lately conjectures by this draft http://connellodonovan.com/coleman_bio.pdf the author does draw upon much historical archival info available:

Coleman was called outside of the town limits on some pretended errand, some two miles… [outside] Salt Lake.39 Once there, he was captured by at least two people, one rumored to have been Porter Rockwell, and he was bashed over the head with a rock. The assailants then took Coleman’s own bowie knife, which was engraved “T. Coleman”, and they slit his throat so deeply that his neck was nearly severed in two – remember, Young said “have his head cut off”? They also slit open his right breast, and then castrated him, in what surely was a temple-based “blood atonement” killing, performed on one who was never allowed to enter the temple or participate in its rituals. In fact, I would argue that this is the clearest act of non-consensual “blood atonement” in the history of the LDS theocracy. The murderers then must have wrapped up his corpse, including his bloody knife and the rock used to brain him, and they cautiously hauled his corpse, likely by wagon, to what is now Capitol Hill. I believe there was only one building on the hill at that time, being the Arsenal, which is where the Museum of the Daughters of Utah Pioneers now stands. Coleman’s body was left behind the Arsenal, arranged on his back with his head to the west, and the bloody rock and bloody knife were placed next to him. Then a pre-made, penciled placard was pinned to his chest. Brigham Young Jr. reported in his journal that the “nigger” found dead had a note reading “Let this be a warning to all niggers that they meddle not with white women.” However both the Salt Lake Daily Telegraph (owned by fringe Mormon TBH Stenhouse) and the Daily Union Vedette (run by the soldiers at Ft. Douglas) reported that the placard read: “Notice to all Niggers. Take warning. Leave white women alone.” This of course leads us to the conclusion that Coleman’s murder was race-based hate crime, but the circumstances seem to indicate that this was only a cover-up.

251 posted on 07/16/2008 2:41:40 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 249 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Re. Port Rockwell

You forgot to mention the Latter-day Saint acted as the scout who led the army upon a band of Indians at the Bear River Massacre.

With from 200-400 Indians slaughtered (estimates vary), this was the worst atrocity against Native Americans -- eclipsing the carnage at Wounded Knee by more than 2:1.

One source describes the event as follows:

The peaceful Shoshone camp was attacked at dawn by Colonel Patrick Edward O'Connor and his militia from Salt Lake City, UT. The Bear River camp was in Washington Territory. Not even a part of the territory O'Connor was sent to watch and protect pony express riders and telegraph lines. O'Connor also brought howitzers, but the snows were to deep. It was this bit of luck that allowed a few Shoshone to escape. Only a very few did escape. 55,000 bullets were used to kill a sleepy camp of about 300. A two year old survivor, son of Chief Sagwitch had seven bullets pass through and into his little body. The Shoshone tried desperately to live in peace with the white settlers. They never posed a great threat like the Comanche and Apache. It seems the more peaceful the tribe, the more bloody the massacre. Bullies always pick on the peaceful. Chief Washakie led his people to the Wind River. It was a place to keep his people safe from the encroaching settlers. These mountains were not suitable for farming. He was a great chief, but only the warrior chiefs of the Lakota, Apache, and Comanche are remembered. This massacre also took place during the Civil War. The massacre was conducted not by trained military, but violent and most times drunken militia. Like Sand Creek, the militia broke the arms and legs of women so they couldn't fight back while they were raped. Bayonets cut open the wombs of pregnant women and pulled out the fetus. Some of the militia wrapped the fetus around their hats as war trophies. After the women were raped the militia men split their skulls open with hatchets. Babies and Toddlers were grabbed and their heads bashed against trees. Chief Bear Hunter was beaten, kicked, stripped and whipped bloody. When he did not cry out in pain or anguish to his tormenters, a soldier heated his bayonet and ran it through Bear Hunter's ears. O'Connor then let his men pillage anything that was left to take. Anything the militia could not steal and plunder was put to the torch including the last of food staples for any survivors. The handful of survivors lived because some of the Mormons did feel guilt. They sheltered them and fed them until the Shoshone could make their way to other camps, including Washakie's haven in the Wind River.

Incidentally, FWIW, Mormons also started the Indian war which led to the Bear River Massacre.

252 posted on 07/16/2008 3:04:48 PM PDT by Zakeet (Be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 251 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

So, what are you trying to say? No Mormons were ever murdered by the poor innocent protestants?

ROFLOL!


253 posted on 07/16/2008 3:44:49 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 251 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Orrin Rockwell he was a better gunslinger and law enforcement officer than Wyatt Earp

Wyatt Earp was a criminal who hid behind the badge. The OK corral had less to do with law enforcement and more to do with criminal gangs staking their turf.

254 posted on 07/16/2008 3:54:39 PM PDT by Godzilla (The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 251 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

“The OK corral had less to do with law enforcement and more to do with criminal gangs staking their turf. “

It’s a good thing our society has ‘matured’ and gotten past that kind of crap.

: )


255 posted on 07/16/2008 8:35:55 PM PDT by UCANSEE2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 254 | View Replies]

To: UCANSEE2

Please do not use potty language on the Religion Forum.


256 posted on 07/16/2008 8:43:32 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 255 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
>>>>“I shot through the window and thought I had killed him [Boggs], but I had only wounded him; I was damned sorry that I had not killed the son of a bitch.” [Orrin Porter Rockwell, in Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder, by Harold Schindler, 1966 version, p. 80]

I have the book and have read it. It is quite good. It is interesting that you misrepresent the source quote. The quote is actually from Partrick Connor who alleges that Rockwell told him that. Whatever website you cut and pasted the quote from either didn't say who the quote actually belongs to (third party heresay) or you conventientyl left it off. The quote is what is called a tertiary source in historical records. In court it is usually called "heresay". It is interesting because Connor was a known antagonist of Brigham Young which begs the question why would Rockwell admit to a known anti-Mormon what the grand jury openly and freely let him go for. Your verison of history doesn't add up. A quick perusal of most of your quotes are tertiary sources. Funny how anit sites leave out pertinent details.

But its easy to make someone look bad when you misrepresent the source of specific words. Rockwell was not without controversy (just as another Law man Wyatt Earp wasn't) but I still contend he was the best lawman in the west hands down and should be lauded as a hero by any and all FReepers. (Except the few afflicted with MDS).

257 posted on 07/17/2008 9:48:36 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 251 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240241-257 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson