Turin Shroud to go on public display [Open]

Is you gone teh shew us, Chaplain?

Would you stop believing in Jesus if the fibers in the shroud were shown to date from long after Christ?

No. Not at all. Don't forget that has happened. In 1988, when the results were reported from the C-14 tests, it was pretty much definitive. The Shroud was manufactured sometime around 1350AD. It was obviously not the Shroud of Christ.

However, I don't follow the wishful thinking of true believers; I follow the science and scholarship. I accepted the data that was presented but I was puzzled because the 1988 C-14 test was the only piece of evidence that completely flew in the face of all other evidence for a much older provenance than the 14th Century. Except for the claims of Bishop d'Arci of Troyes who, 25 years after its first display in Lirey, wrote that his predecessor had located the artist who "cunningly painted it."

I was still intrigued by the Shroud. if the Shroud had been created in the mid 14th Century, then what great genius had done it - and how? I continued to read all of the scholarship and the scientific reports that came out in the following years. That science and scholarship, more and more, put the C-14 tests in doubt. The C-14 date was NOT consistent with the other science and scholarship. When new discoveries of known provenance were discovered that showed the Shroud in existence hundreds of years prior to the earliest C-14 date, it became more and more necessary to question the C-14 tests,

But, being a follower of the science, I criticized and debunked the various hypotheses of why the C-14 tests were in error... because of the science.

The soot argument fails because it would require better than 50% of the tested Shroud sample to have been soot to skew the dating from the 1st Century. The Bio-plastic, bacteria poop residue hypothesis failed because of a similar but even more exaggerated contaminant weight problem but also because the source of the bacteria's carbon was dietary and their diet consisted of the Shroud fibers and their bodies and waste products would have the same exact C-14 ratio of the Shroud. Heat alteration of the C-14 levels during the 1532 fire fails because chemistry cannot alter atomic isotopes ratios. While radiation from a resurrection miracle could alter atomic isotopes, it fails because it is totally untestable, literally un-falsifiable.

The one hypothesis that finally was proved to be the answer to why all the other evidence pointed to the falsity of the C-14 test, and toward a much earlier date, was the mistaken sampling theory. Because of a breakdown in protocols, the C-14 test turned out to be the bad science, not the other work that had been done. The protocols were broken at the very moment the decision was made by the custodians of the Shroud to ignore the protocols and the advice of the scientists in the selection of the samples.

The agreed original protocols required that eight samples be taken from eight different areas of the Shroud. Instead, only one sample was taken from one area - the one area that all the scientists had said should NOT be a sample site candidate. This decision destroyed any credibility the test results might have. It has been conclusively proved that the sample was a mixture of original and replacement fibers and completely contaminated. Error in, Error Out. Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Those advocates that adhere to the original 1988 C-14 test dates are doing so because of wishful thinking and prejudice. If they were truly following the science they would discount the tests as invalid, and thus irrelevant to deciding the age of the main body of the Shroud. All that test provided was the averaged age of the materials that had been added and the original material that was still present in the sample.

Thanks for the ping!

There’s a blatant fraud to the shroud. It can never be proved to be Jesus’

No one is stating that it is - but all the massive modalities brought to bear in examining the shroud have NOT been able to DISprove it... much to the consternation of the atheists determined to.

All the modern science against something that is hundreds of years old cannot disprove it...even the depictions of Jesus in the art world testify to the existence of the Shroud back hundreds of years before the time the of the flawed carbon dating date. .

People don't change. Only names and times change.

There were people who knew Jesus in person who not only couldn't/wouldn't accept Him or His message but set out to destroy Him.

Those same personalities/mindsets are with us today. If Jesus, Himself, appeared and verified that the Shroud is His, they would deny Him yet again.

It has always seemed that the deniers are bitter in their "you can't PROVE it!" protestations...angrily emotional with a touch of fear?

But the icons nose is much narrower, and lacks the bump in the middle, which is very characteristic of shroud

I have studied the Shroud for over 40 years.

Perhaps if you read the many books and studies or corresponded with any of original scientists of the 1978 group, you would have picked up the fact the forensic scientists determined that the man of the shroud suffered from a broken nose and swollen cheek from trauma...that resulted in swelling and a 'bump" = "oh my!"

There were hundreds of icons painted in the early years, (no photography to easily reproduce) for churches and private chapels - most using the Shroud face as the model. The Shroud face is, it would seem, the origin of the physical description of what Jesus looked like that we all instantly recognize...

possibly done by daVinci,

the only problem with that stretched out theory is that the whereabouts of the shroud are known long before da Vinci - even the carbon dating, which was evidently done on the patched areas, take it back hundreds of years before da Vinci.

I would humbly suggest that anyone who has not 'studied the studies' and read the plethora of books written by the different scientists who were in the team of 1978, do so before making up their minds on 'opinion'.

One good place to start for info and leads is Barrie Schwortz's site at

http://www.shroud.com/

He is one of the scientists on the '78 team, who went as a skeptic.

Believe the Shroud is authentic or a fraud, one thing is true. You cannot offer even a valid opinion if you have not studied the history and the data...

i.e., Don't believe everything you think.

I like Delta 21’s suggestion of having 2 independent labs conduct separate tests and then comparing results. That seems pretty fair

If I remember correctly, the samples were sent to THREE labs for independent testing -

Will the Shroud be ‘on display’ only at the Vatican?

I believe it will not leave the church in Turin -

Would you stop believing in Jesus if the fibers in the shroud were shown to date from long after Christ?

actually, the linen has proven to be from Jesus's time, woven in the manner of the time and place, as well as having botanical evidence from the area etc etc

Your logic is absurd...No offense.

Frankly, I thought the bumpy nose made him look Jewish. (*sheepish grin*)

Your logic is absurd...No offense.

Thank you for acknowledging I am at least using logic. I find none in your post #4 that I was responding too - "no offense"

"There’s a blatant fraud to the shroud. It can never be proved to be Jesus’."

Wrong, bucko. Just say the word when you're ready to debate/discuss the topic in detail; I'll be there.

There are hundreds of such examples......and you miss the point.

The contention of most Shroud scholars (I know some of the top ones on the planet) is that the icons were based upon the image on the Shroud (it used to be displayed far more often than it is today). I’ll go you one better......even facial features of many ‘gods’ of other religions map to the features on the Shroud amazingly well; points of congruence are far beyond the realm of “coincidence”.

Hey M,

A life size photo display of the Shroud—both sides, was at a church in Hanceville, AL a few years ago last I visited.

It’s not the real thing but it is still very impressive. Not sure if it’s still there but here is the website for more info if interested http://olamshrine.com/

Thanx K, will peruse it.

Vultus Christi

June 2, 2008

Vultus Christi: The Face of God

That Mysterious Face

This morning the Holy Father announced an exposition of the Sacred Shroud of Turn in the Spring of 2010. The Shroud will be displayed for the general public. "If the Lord gives me life and health," said the Holy Father, "I too hope to come to contemplate the mysterious Face, which silently speaks to the hearts of humanity, inviting us to recognize the face of God who loved us so much that he gave us his only Son, so that those who believe may have eternal life." The Holy Father also announced that the year 2010 will be dedicated to the Passion of Christ.

Obedience

Again, the Holy Face: the May 11, 2008 letter on obedience of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life is entitled, Faciem Tuam, Domine, Requiram, "It is Thy Face, O Lord, that I Seek." Here are the first lines of the introduction to the letter.

“Let your Face shine upon us and we shall be saved” (Psalm 79:4)

Consecrated Life as a Witness of the Search for God

1. “Faciem tuam, Domine, requiram”: Your Face, O Lord, I seek (Ps 27:8). A pilgrim seeking the meaning of life, enwrapped in the great mystery that surrounds him, the human person, even if unconsciously, does, in fact, seek the Face of the Lord. “Your ways, O Lord, make known to me, teach me your paths” (Ps 25:4): no one can ever take away from the heart of the human person the search for him of whom the Bible says “He is all” (Sir 43:27) and for the ways of reaching him.

Consecrated life, called to make the characteristic traits of the virginal, poor and obedient Jesus visible, flourishes in the ambience of this search for the Face of the Lord and the ways that lead to him (cf. Jn 14:4-6).

Were can I find the picture of the painting of ( Dive Mercy ) painted in the 1930’s ?

This is what I believed what Jesus looked like.

Were can I find the picture of the painting of ( Dive Mercy ) painted in the 1930’s ?

The Restored Vilnius Image of The Divine Mercy

DIVINE MERCY IMAGES

The Turin Shroud is to go on public display for the first time in a decade, sources at the Vatican have indicated, coinciding with a new set of tests on its age.

June 2, 2008

Vultus Christi: The Face of God