Posted on 05/28/2008 6:05:04 PM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Hello fellow Freepers. I believe this is my first post on the Religion forum.
Over the past week or so, I put some thought into something I've been pondering for a while; my spiritual welfare. As it was, I had been part of the 'Sola Scriptua' school of thought (Evangelical Christian). By the Bible and only the Bible. Sounded good enough.
Well...what about before the Bible was put into word? It stuck in my head when reading an article earlier on FR concerning a deconstruction of Sola Scriptura and its inherent weaknesses as a foundation for one's faith.
This, combined with a genuine lack of churchgoing (as a family, we've been uncertain about going to various churches, given that top-down problems with Episcopal/Methodist/etc. churches and their increasing liberalization are a genuine problem for one's spiritual welfare), compelled me to make a decision.
I don't know if my family will follow me, persay, but I'm going to go ahead and take the plunge.
Next month, I'm going to the Church of St. Thomas the Apostle near my home, and I'm joining the Roman Catholic Church.
As is, I have a few volumes of the Magnificat pamphlet and the Catechism of the Catholic Church to read.
Any other pointers from other Catholic Freepers?
What you have to realize is that there will be religious people in Hell, but not everyone in Hell will have been a religious person, and also, the fact that there will be religious people in Hell doesn’t mean that all religious people will go to Hell.
To say otherwise is to say the same thing as “All Democrats are evil, Democrats are human, therefore all humans are evil”. This does not necessarily follow, as a matter of logic, just as “Religious people will be in Hell, there are some people on Earth now that are religious, that means all religious people are going to Hell”. You may not agree that’s the same error in logic, but it is. Anyone who objectively looks at the situation can see that.
As far as Matt 7 goes, and Jesus’ warning, the entire chapter should be read in context first. What does Jesus say above the warning you describe, (other than Matt 7:1-5, which I think is ironically relevant here)?
Matt 7:9-12: Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
The well known Golden Rule. Here Christ exhorts us to be kind to one another, specifically to “give bread” when asked and/or “give fish” when asked. Sound like good works to you? It does to me.
Further:
Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
A warning that the life of Christ is not easy, at least as the world would define “easy”, and a warning to heed Christ’s words lest we fail.
Matt 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
A passage that warns us against false prophets. And how are we to know false prophets? By their FRUITS. The fruit a “tree” produces is vital, not only for identification as enemy, but also for God Himself (see below).
Matt 7:17-20 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
It is by fruits that we are to judge who is the false prophet, (v 20) AND, also, by which WE are judged by God! (v 19).
Here we can now see the proper context of Matt 7:21-23, the passage you are describing. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (v 21). The false prophets, the ravenous wolves, will try such a claim to no avail.
It’s also interesting that you would talk about this passage at all, for those who don’t believe in the necessary component of “good works” usually avoid this entire chapter. And even beyond that, Matt 7:21-23 CLEARLY shows that the notion of an “invisible church” MUST be false. It simply does not suffice to say the “sinners prayer” after one goes up for an “altar call”, and then say, “Praise Jesus, I’m SAVED”. This notion is in clear contradiction to Matt 7:21-23, even the entire chapter of Matt 7.
I originally came on this thread to offer some advice to the OP. I’m not even going to ping him/her to this post because I don’t want to drag him/her into one of these silly debates that, quite frankly, have been done over and over and over again. Catholics always deal with the claim of being “too religious” and “worshipping Mary” and “pagan practices” ad nauseum. A catechite doesn’t need to be dragged into this.
I realize that you and others honestly believe that the Church is wrong in this area or that, and that you are doing “God’s work” by trying to convince new members of its “error”. But let me leave you with this sentiment: Catholics don’t come into other Protestant/non-Catholic Christian churches and try to convince their new converts of *their* error (even though of course we believe they have error). You may say that’s because we don’t really care about people, since we’re Satanic, or, since we *are* Satanic, we can’t stop you (being from God). But maybe the reason is because we not only respect an individual’s freedom to choose, but we also believe God is strong enough to work with someone individually, something all of the critics on this thread apparently *don’t* believe.
Our parish has one color envelope for the weekly pledge, and then various color envelopes for the other appeals. They do send us a quarterly statement with everything broken down. It IS confusing, so I just write one check for our weekly pledge and then use my discretion for the others.
But it's sort of like having your sleeve tugged from ALL directions. I guess I'm used to it since I work in downtown Atlanta --
The Catechism is wonderful. Catholicism for Dummies/ Fr Trujilio, is very orthodox and great. We love EWTN. Welcome home.
We were married at 26. We lived in a house not far from my parents so we attended the same church I grew up attending. I always made a point to keep some cash on hand for the Sunday collection. We did it as kids and I continued as a young adult. Two years later, my son was born.
There were no excuse for what that pastor attempted to do. I was there, I looked in his eyes and there was no mistake or misunderstanding.
There is a process for that, called RCIA. Unless there is a special urgency, you should enter the RCIA and expect to come to full communion next Easter.
Begin by coming to Mass and understanding its basic structure and meaning. Get into a habit of daily prayer. There are many wonderful books to read that are theoretical in nature; however, Catholicism is what we do, rather than what we think. Get into the rhythm of the Church, her holidays and seasons, spend time with Catholics, hang around the Catholic threads here.
You might be moved to re-read the scripture. If you are wondering where to start, re-read the Gospels and the Acts. Try to put all the theological baggage out of your head and just read them for the story they tell. These five books are the most countercultural, hyper-Catholic literature there is.
There are many people that will be happy to help you with your questions here. I know I will.
God bless you.
I could go on with apologetics here, but I would rather focus on you, and your concerns. There will be plenty of other threads to “fight the good fight”. LOL
As per your request for advice, I cannot stress strongly enough finding and attending an RCIA program in your area. This is a pretty good time to find one, as the last group of candidates were just welcomed into the Church this past Easter, so RCIA should be starting up soon in all the parishes across the nation.
You may be disappointed to learn that most times, people will not be formally received into the Church until the Easter Vigil Mass. This is just the way it’s done in most cases (except for returning Catholics, all they have to do is go to Confession). This is to emphasize the need all converts have (whether they realize it or not) to be properly educated about the Faith. We don’t take the Faith lightly, and RCIA is one way of showing this dedication.
This is important however: You absolutely CAN go to Mass, and participate fully in said Mass (and also do a myriad of other Catholic things like pray the Rosary, use Holy Water to bless yourself, etc); you can do all these things, EXCEPT receive Holy Communion. Only baptized Catholics in a state of grace can do that. This isn’t to exclude you, it’s actually to PROTECT you from committing a grave sin (receiving Eucharist in a manner where you haven’t properly discerned its nature and meaning). (c.f. 1 Cor 11:27-30)
When you inquire about RCIA, a priest or spiritual director (whoever is in charge of RCIA at your local parish) may ask you, “Have you been Baptized?” What they mean by that is the Catholic definition of “Baptism”, which is that water poured over your forehead, while the celebrant states, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”. As long as that was done, at ANY church (Catholic or otherwise), then you have been Baptized. If it hasn’t, then you need to get Baptized.
A note about the Baptism itself: If you have been baptized by immersion, that ALSO counts, because obviously, if water flows over your head either by someone pouring the water on you, or by you just being immersed and coming up from the water, the act is the same, water flowed over your head. Again though, someone must have also said “I baptize you in the name of...etc”.
The norm in the Church is to baptize by pouring water over the head, even for adults, but some parishes have taken it upon themselves to immerse adult catechites in water. I don’t know if that’s considered a “liturgical abuse” or not, someone else could elaborate if they wish, but even if it is “wrong” in the sense of “form”, that in no way negates the saving power of the Baptism itself. So, if your local parish is doing baptism by immersion for adults, I wouldn’t worry about it or make too big a stink about it.
Hopefully this was helpful, and welcome home! I’ll be praying for you!
Ah, so you believe the the parable of the lost son is relevant to Christian non-Catholics becoming Catholic? So these people have “set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living” (Luke 15:13)? That is your impression of the Evangelical church?
Some of those Eastern Orthodox icons are quite works of art. There is a shop near me whose owner sells Hindu artwork - his mother lives in Greece and sends him a lot of E.O. icons to sell, and I am always amazed at the detail put into them.
***I see Mary’s home, but I don’t see the evil eye peddler.***
I did see it. I was there. Have you been there?
If that’s the case, then I agree that there was no excuse for the pastor. Personally, I’ve never heard of such a thing happening. I hope you reported him to the bishop (assuming the bishop was one of the good ones!).
To my knowledge, the church in Rome wasn’t the “head church” in the Church at the time Paul wrote that.
I’m a member of the Church, the one Christ founded. I’m not subservient to Rome.
Thank God for the Reformation, the season in the life of the Church that allowed Christians to return *home* to Christ.
In as much as we are all creations of God yes. But this explanation is more of what I was referring to:
Conscience is a judgement of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgement of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law.
To be secure in following our conscience, we require a properly informed conscience, i.e., one that is in possession of the truth. And it is the teaching of the Church that guarantees that we possess the truth revealed by God. We form our conscience with the truth of the moral realm, so that we might conform our actions to those of Christ.
What a great example of the respect and love Catholics have towards non-Catholic Christians.
Perhaps outright *heresy, then, because between 1100 and 1500 (actually much earlier as well), people in the Alps and other places who believed something like I believe were being burned at the stake, drowned, put on the rack, hung by the neck, drug behind horses, decapitated, and so forth. And many of the same received similar treatment by the Geneva-based Protestants after 1500.
But nothing I belong to on earth sits me with Christ in the heavenly places (Ephesians 3). I was already seated there IN Christ prior to joining the fellowship of any congregation of believers on earth. *I am only presuming this would be your characterization.
I believe that Jesus Christ established One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church.
I believe that baptism is necessary, but not sufficient for salvation.
That is why He gave us the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church.
Baptism is by desire, blood, or water, but the ordinary way is with water.
I believe that while it is His desire that we receive the sacraments, for our own benefit, and so that we have the means of further sanctification, it is possible for one who dies with complete contrition for his sins and a desire for baptism, to gain salvation through the merits of the Catholic Church-particularly through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
I believe that because Catholics are given so much, that Catholics are held to a higher standard than non-Catholics.
I also believe that Catholics who do God’s will are rewarded justly in Heaven.
So, the lost and separated are non-Catholics and fallen away Catholics, and even practicing Catholics who have fallen into serious sin.
Salvation is possible for all of them, but the further one travels into the blinding snowstorm, the harder it will be to find one’s way out.
I talked with the pastor of the church my wife grew up in and he baptized my son. I wrote a nice long letter to the archdiocese regarding my experience and we relocated (job) to another state (and church) within a year’s time. I did not hear of any repercussions, nor did I really expect any though I did get an apology letter from the archdiocese.
ROFLOL!!!!
Fabulous! Did you write it? That is awesome!
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