[Dr. Eckleburg]

Please note the date of this article -- 1866.

Seems that very little has changed in over a century.

In fact, I was stunned to realize that "Mary as co-redeemer" is not a recent fiction, but has been around quite awhile, as the article states.

[L.N. Smithee]

This thread title sounds like an underground movie from the sixties.

[Aussie Dasher]

Hundreds of millions of moozies want to decapitate us and you are having a go at the Catholics????

[1000 silverlings]

I can only shake my head and remember what FTD said to me: they do admit that they worship the virgin Mary, they just won’t admit that it’s wrong.

[Gamecock]

***Mary is in the Eucharist***

I didn’t know that. One can learn so much on FR!

[carton253]

“Beware of Pussyism! Pussyism is always bad, and may lead to unchristian feeling; therefore beware of Pussyism!” - Robert E. Lee to Henry Hunt, Fort Hamilton, 1846, when this very conflict had seized the Episcopal community.

[narses]

+

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More outrageous lies told about the Catholic Church. Outright lies, nothing less. Shame on any who post lies like this, those who distribute them and those who use these lies to harm the Christian community -- SHAME!

[50sDad]

It would probably be worthwhile to note what Benjamin Franklin had to say:

"If we do not all hang together, we shall all surely hang separately."

There are murderous child-killing monsters outside the gates, Democrats trying to open up the doors so we can "talk" to them...and some are wasting their time slipping the shiv in the backs of their fellow soldiers?

Go back into the keep with the children and let the guards out here do their work.

[OpusatFR]

The burdon of proof is on you. I can’t prove a Dogma that doesn’t exist.

It is up to you to produce the Apostolic Constitution defining “ex cathedra” (from the chair of Peter) of this supposedly declared Dogma.

Then we can debate.

However, there is NO DOGMA on Mary as Co-redeemer.

It is, and continues to be a pious exercise.

[Uncle Chip]

"'We maintain a (co-)presence of Mary in the Eucharist. This is a necessary inference from our Marian theory, and we shrink back from no consequence.' 'We are much inclined,' he says afterwards, 'to believe an essential co-presence of Mary in her whole person, with body and soul, under the sacred species. Certainly to such a presence in the Eucharist, 1. there is required a glorious mode of being of the Virgin body of the Holy Mother. We are not only justified in holding this as to Mary, but we have well-nigh proved it. 2. The assumption of a bodily presence of Mary in the Eucharist compels self-evidently the assumption of a multi-location (i.e. a contemporaneous presence in different portions of space) of Mary, according to her flesh too. 3. One who would receive this must be ready to admit a compenetration of the Body of Christ and of that of the Virgin in the same portion of space, i.e. under the sacred species.' The writer subsequently explains that 'the "lac virginale" must be looked upon as that of Mary, which is primarily present in the Eucharist, whereto, in further consequence, the whole Christ the Head, the Blessed Virgin is, as also her soul, would be joined.' 'The Blood of the Lord, and the lac of His Virgin Mother, are both present in the sacrament.'"

My Oh My!!! Co-redemptrix and now Co-presence in the Eucharist???? It's getting a little crowded in there, isn't it???

[Gumdrop]

Here we go again. Spreading false interpretation about our devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the chosen one of God to be the Mother of our Redeemer.

Honoring her is not worshipping her.

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

I am stuck on the question of WHY do people RCC or anyone else - expend SO MUCH effort on extra-Biblical doctrines? Why create so many “talking points” and defend such extra-Biblical stuff so stridently?

The ONLY conclusion I can come to is that of being unsatisfied with Christ. If Christ is enough, no need for all this distracting, argumentative, religion - be it Marianism or PurposeDrivenism.

A pox on the whole lot of religious zealots for whom Christ is not adequate!

[Petrosius]

Oh great, an article by a Baptist (Spurgeon) referring to an Anglican (Pusey) selectively quoting on what Catholics believe. So much more reliable than listening to the Catholics themselves. (So, Mr. Hitler, do the Jews really drink the blood of German babies?) When someone states a falsehood through ignorance it is a mistake; when he does so after being repeatedly corrected it is a lie. For you to claim, despite numerous corrections, that Catholics worship Mary IS A LIE!

As to the article itself, you will note that nowhere, contrary to its title, is there a statement by a Catholic that he worships Mary. For Catholics the act of worship is the holy sacrifice of the Mass. If you were to study the Mass you would find that it is addressed to the Father. Even in Masses on feasts of Mary the prayers are all addressed to God, not Mary. As an example, here is the Opening Prayer of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception:

FATHER, you prepared the Virgin Mary to be the worthy mother of your Son. You let her share beforehand in the salvation Christ would bring by his death, and kept her sinless form the first moment of her conception. Help us by her prayers to live in your presence without sin. We ask this THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, YOUR SON, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Not a single word addressed to Mary. (Please do not quote other prayers from outside the Mass that are addressed to Mary, these are not acts of worship; only the Mass is.) Time and again the distinctions between latria (worship) and dulia (veneration) have been explained to you. There are enough real disputes between Catholics and Protestants that you do not need to invent false ones. In Catholic Bibles "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" is listed as one of the Commandments. Is it in yours?

[informavoracious]

Why do you post this anti- Catholic screed? You will not change the mind of a single faithful Catholic. It is merely an incitement to ruffle feathers. What do you care what we believe? Don’t pretend you are trying to ‘speak the truth in love.’ There is nothing loving about your posts. Try speaking the truth to Moslems about Mohammed’s pedophiliac, murderous ways. If you dare. The Blessed Mother never hurt anyone. ‘Hail, full of grace.’ That’s from Scripture. Concentrate on what unites, not what divides, the followers of Christ and let God sort out the rest.

[Huber]

"Amid all the mischief which Pusey has done, it is well to note and acknowledge whatever service he may in this case render to truth. The headings of the paragraphs are ours; the quotations are given as they stand."

Many of us would have similar sentiments regarding Spurgeon.

[Unam Sanctam]

If someone is interested in finding out what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary, why don’t they pick up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and see what it says, rather than reading a tendentious, polemical tract by a Protestant?

[Quix]

FACTS

can be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

annoying . . .

to those who’s minds are

made-up

and who . . . have alllllll their eggs

in one very leaky basket . . . especially with a big snake in the basket, to boot.

[griffin]

Good post. Thanks. Always good to read a bit from Spurgeon.

[DungeonMaster]

The conclusion seems to be that Marian RCs can’t possibly be Christians. They believe in a doctrine that is not Christian doctrine but plagerizes the names and some concepts.

[DungeonMaster]

Enough! enough! every one of our readers will cry out, and therefore we stay our hand. Surely "for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Amen!!!

I've been to the "enough enough!" state many times on this subject.

I suspect the response to be very unusual here because this is the most naked of idolatries. There is little to be said in defense.