Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church

Once a Southern Baptist pastor, Michael Cumbie converted to Catholicism in 2001 and has since been traveling far from his hometown near Pensacola, Florida, to preach his new faith to the nation. At Saint Therese Catholic Church in San Diego for a "renewal mission" this April, he spent three evenings speaking about his conversion, Catholic worship, and the Eucharist. About 200 hundred came to listen the last evening's talk. While he gathered his materials after his energetic presentation, I asked him some questions on the same topics.

Can you say something about the experience of the Holy Spirit in your life that put you on the path to Catholicism?

"Most Catholics and Protestants are familiar with the charismatic renewal, that came to all Christianity in the '70s. It was a big renewing of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, a little different from Pentecostalism, which started in the early 1900s. That movement of the Holy Spirit seemed to be of the less educated and maybe poorer people. Many folks would never have gone to one of those kinds of gatherings of people speaking in tongues and prophesying. But then in the '70s that experience of Pentecost which the Catholic Church celebrates every year, started to invade those mainline churches of educated people. Intellectual Christians started having the same experience that the Pentecostals did. I was swept up in that movement. But also, as a Southern Baptist, we did not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that they still operated today or were meant for today. But when I was in college I got around a group of young people that just had such a powerful presence of Christ in their lives. I'd never seen that. All Christians I knew up to that time were pretty much all the same -- I use the little analogy all the time, 'you don't know there are any hundred watt light bulbs if you're always around forty watt light bulbs.' So I got around all these hundred watt light bulbs and I noticed how much brighter their light was, if I can say it that way, and it just really drove me crazy. After about three months I said to these folks, 'You know, you guys have something I don't have. You're Christians, I'm a Christian, I believe that, but you've got some secret. I sense this powerful presence, and besides that you have such understanding of the Bible even though you've never been to Bible college,' and they said, 'Michael, it's the Holy Spirit'. Then they used the term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' and I'd never heard of that, and to make a long story short we went through hours and hours of theological discussion. Because it was against my training and teaching as a Southern Baptist, they had a lot to overcome to try to convince me that this was a Biblical, Scriptural schism. But once they did, and I prayed and had the experience, it changed everything for me. The major thing it did, which began my conversion to Catholicism, was that it put a crack in my foundation that my denomination knew everything.

"Never at that point did I think about Catholicism, although the very first thing that happened to me that was unusual other than this gift of tongues, was that I drove past a Catholic Church and for the first time, I felt drawn to go in there and pray. Now I was raised so anti-Catholic -- we were told, don't you ever go inside a Catholic church. If you go into one, you can't get out. We laugh about it now, but we were deathly afraid of Catholicism. We thought it was from Satan and was deceiving millions of people, full of man-made rituals, because it was so different from our form of Christianity of preaching and singing and evangelizing. But I went into that Catholic Church, I spent four hours in that old, traditional, beautiful church. The pillars of marble, high altar rails, canvas paintings, stained glass windows -- it arrested me. I could not imagine what the people who went there did. I thought, with a building that looks like this, what do you do when you come here? I noticed the pulpit was not front-and-center like it always was at our churches where the emphasis is on hearing sermons and preaching. That experience marked me -- it did something to me that I've never gotten over. It began my conversion to the Catholic Church, because it caused such curiosity in me. I went home and I began to read, and every time we'd pass one of those churches, for the next ten years, I'd get my whole family out of the car and make them go inside and look at that church, and the kids loved it. They loved the holy water (they didn't know what it was for), and they loved the statues. I'd read them the little plaques beneath the saint statues which told the saint's story. I couldn't figure out at the time why God kept pulling me into those beautiful old churches to pray, when I was so anti-Catholic in my theology."

Would you say that exposure to the aesthetic appeal of traditional Catholic churches was your entry into sacramental theology?

"Well, yes, although it took fifteen years. What happened was, I went to a conference where a pastor stood up and said to us, 'The church in America is irrelevant.' (Now when he said 'church' he meant all the Protestants). He said, 'It's not having any impact on society'. I knew he was right, I knew something had been wrong for a long time. We preached our hearts out, but it wasn't changing the nation. It wasn't causing men who had no use for God to even consider God. So it really made me start to examine what we were preaching and what was our method of getting people converted -- was our method of salvation the right way? So this little preacher got up and said, 'The church is irrelevant,' and then said, 'we believe the cure for the ills of our society is for us evangelical Protestant pastors to return to ancient liturgy and sacramental theology.' I had no idea what he was talking about. I thought, 'We have to do what?'

"My friend next to me said, 'Oh, no, he's talking about C-C-C-Catholicism.' That pastor proceeded to spend the next hour and fifteen minutes telling us why he said what he said, and it so disturbed me, because I knew in my heart he was on to something true, but my head was giving me fits. It went against everything I believed. So we gave ourselves the next two years just to study and read the early Church fathers. We realized how much we had lost in the Reformation, and made a vow to try to take all our congregations and restore everything that was lost. No small task. We started to call ourselves 'ancient historical Christians', which of course is nothing other than Catholic. After trying many other alternatives (such as the Episcopal church) my wife Sherry and I decided to become Catholic. We needed a pope -- to be in line with Peter."

In a post-Vatican II climate, in which the word "renewal" can equate to a watering down of the faith, what does the word mean to you?

"Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, 'What needs to be renewed?' and 'Why does anybody need renewal?' When I was a Protestant we used the word 'revival'. We believed we needed reviving because we've gone cold and indifferent and spiritually dead, and at one time the faith was on fire and vibrant and alive. So that's what renewal and revival means to me. The Scriptures say, 'Can these dry bones live again,' and give examples of breathing on something that's become a dead formalistic mental exercise and is not alive spiritually anymore."

Do you think this kind of renewal is at the heart of what was called for by Vatican II?

"I think the Vatican Council was about this renewal. Of course I'm a new kid on the block, and have heard a lot of controversy about the second Vatican Council, and I've seen some great things that have come supposedly as a result of it, and some not so great things. But what I find out about those not so great things is that those were things that were never intended by the Council anyway. So a misapplication and a misinterpretation have happened. I will go on record saying I believe with all my heart that the Second Vatican Council is the voice of God to the Church. It is the magisterium. There's no arguing with that. How it's implemented though -- people get involved, men get involved.... Without being uncharitable, I can say some men with their own agendas came out of the council and tried to use the phrase, 'in the spirit of the second Vatican Council ... we have to change, etc, etc.... ' I think the Council was God's way of trying to bring renewal to the Church in the twenty-first century. I have to say, all the things I read about Catholicism -- the rubrics of the mass, the silence of the sacred space, the kneelers and the formality of dress -- it was all so refreshing to me. But when I actually saw the typical Catholic churches, it was very different. If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic. Because it's so much like the Protestant environment that I left. I was looking for structure, and respect for the sacred, and love for the holy, and we didn't have it. And many parishes, I'm afraid, have become just like that "in the spirit of Vatican II" of making the church a "gathering space" -- even though it is still sacred space we don't act like it is. So I think some things have been very detrimental to the faith and have even caused tens of thousands of Catholics to walk out and lose their faith. And again, that's not the Council's fault but just the statistics. Of the thirty-three percent of Catholics who still attend mass regularly, sixty-six percent no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the crisis in the church, not pedophilia. This loss of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist -- that's the very doctrine that changed my whole life and caused my conversion, because all the Church's teachings flow from that doctrine."

Do you see the same need for a return to sacramental theology that you saw in the Protestant congregations?

"Absolutely. Dr. (Scott) Hahn says, 'We must evangelize the baptized first.' Evangelization has to start among our own people. And it's happening. There were about two hundred Protestant pastors that came into the Church the year I converted, and I heard two weeks ago that there are four hundred and seventy-nine Protestant pastors coming into the Church this year. So what's the Lord up to? He loves the Church. It's not going to die or fall apart. He promised that, but it may go through some real reviving and renewing and changing, and God is bringing hundreds of Protestant pastors, the leaders of Protestant Christianity, back home, to the roots of their own faith even as Christians. So it looks like the Holy Spirit is up to something."

Do you think there's a need to be especially careful when you are trying to make Catholic truths digestible to the average layperson?

"Yes, you have to be very careful. Most of us -- we converted pastors -- are not theologians, we're not experts, we learned just enough about the Church to know it was the truth. And what most of us try to share are just the things we know that changed our lives. There are many topics I will not touch. I cannot teach on a particular doctrine if I'm not educated in it. The things that I know according to Scripture, and that we can prove historically about the Church being the Church that Jesus started, I have no problem preaching up a storm on those kinds of things. But every teacher, apologist, or catechist has to be very careful. You try to make the faith as understandable as you can while avoiding any danger of heresy."

Do you feel that your call is to evangelize to the baptized first by sharing your story?

"By sharing my story, yes, but more importantly through apologetics. Why do we believe what we believe? You must be able to give an answer to anyone that asks you. Saint Peter said, 'You must be able at all times to give a reason for the hope that lies in you.' So first the baptized must be taught their own faith, and then taught how to answer criticisms of that faith from non-Catholic Christians who are very misinformed about the faith just like I was. And a kind answer turns away wrath -- you've got to be filled with love and with charity, but you have to know the faith. When it comes to those who have no faith at all, you need to ask yourself, 'Do I know how to share the love of Christ with them? Can I convince them of their need for God and salvation?' Can you love them into the Kingdom? God does the converting, we don't convert anybody. Our job is to be the best Catholics we can be. My job is not to tell you what to believe but to explain the faith. Then you must decide what you believe."

I have one of James passed out on the couch during that week at the lake, wearing the same t-shirt. It came from Target, I think. It’s a family joke now. “Did you do a Stunt? Poor baby, let me give you kiss. Good Stunt!”

That’s what I look like today, except I’m wearing sweatsuits instead of shorts and a t-shirt. My hair has gone all shaggy and gray again. I’ve got the brown dye sitting on the bathroom counter, but I haven’t got around to using it!

I have to get it colored before we see my parents at Myrtle Beach in May. Mom said that Dad recently thought a picture of him was his father - I don’t want him to think I’m his mother or MY mother :-). I’ll need non-gray hair and sprightly clothes!

The many who masquerade as teachers imbued with the authority of the Paraclete here astounds. They have no credibility, they are the tinny and small sounds of the gnat buzzing in the night.

I am not against you...I am against your tradition...I will show people that much of your tradition is not biblical every chance I get...

The Light of the World gave us the Apostles to teach us the very Word that He also gave us. I will listen to the Apostles and their legitimate successors - not the legion of small and buzzing voices trying so hard to be an authority and yet having none.

No authority, no credibility -- nothing of value. Disputatious and irrelevant.

The New York Times (believe me, no friend of the Catholic Church) did an independent analysis of all the records involving priestly abuse in the U.S. Catholic Church. The NYT study found that 1.8% of the priests had been accused of abuse over the past 50 years.

With all due respect, Mrs D., the John Jay Study (see threads here, here, and outside coverage here) - commissioned by the U.S. Catholic Bishops' National Review Board itself - found that the number of accused Catholic priest abusers equaled four percent of the entire Catholic priest population. The John Jay study's findings are more than conclusive - they're exhaustive of the entire US population of Catholic priests. Surely you're not suggesting that the New York Times would be as more reliable source of information than the John Jay Study?

We all share your disgust about the sexual molestation of children. You might want to continue your research here, at a website dedicated to researching child sexual abuse by Protestant ministers. Get back to us on it when you can, OK?

As I've said elsewhere, every study I've been shown of "Protestant" abuse (including the website you've linked to) included volunteers and laypersons. The John Jay Study did not address these groups when they looked at Catholic parishes. If we exclude volunteers and laypersons from the "Protestant" studies (thereby creating a "pastor vs priest" apple-to-apple comparison), we arrive at a roughly 1% abuse rate for all "Protestant" pastors, or (in other words) at least a four times greater likelihood that any given Catholic priest will be a sexual predator, as compared to any given "Protestant" pastor. And that's according to the numbers and studies that Catholics keep telling me about.

Let me throw in one caveat to those comparisons. I found something interesting when I broke down the "Protestant" abuse cases by denomination / affiliation / theological leanings. The more free will / Arminian / synergistic the theology is, and the more independent the association is (as opposed to denominational affiliation), the higher the abuse statistic goes - and conversely, if you just look at the Reformed Protestant denominations, the number of "Protestant" abuse cases statistically drops off the chart by comparison. It's only the average of all "Protestant" pastors that is around 1%. Some independent churches have statistics that are far, far higher than the Catholic average of 4%.

How is my post a casual relationship with truth? I have stated that Catholic priests have been protected by the Catholic hierarchy - and they have been, transferred instead of removed from power in many cases - only to go to the new place and betray the people there.

I understand. People have a lot invested in their sacred cows of “religion” and are not about to demand that the disinfectant of the light of truth shine into the dark, dank corners where their sacred cows have defecated.

That’s good, because I’m not trying to be “right”. It is irrelevant to me whether I am “right” or not. It is enough to me to be faithful, and God is the judge of that.

One thing I am not doing is trying to use data to attempt to shore up rottenness - decay in any organization.

I am from a Huguenot heritage and am well aware of the historical depravity that the Catholic priests have been capable of in the name of the Roman Catholic Church. However, I am NOT trying to quote statistics in an attempt to prove that Protestantism is “right”. Neither is probably “right”, and I certainly didn’t post here to be abused and flamed; but enjoy it by all means.

Those former Catholics who wind up as Protestants:
1. Have removed themselves from the Scripture truth of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist “This is my body..” “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man...”
2. Have removed themselves from the Scripture truth about divorce and remarriage “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder...”
3. Have removed themselves from scripture teaching by advocating abortion and euthanasia “Thou shalt not kill..”
4. Have removed themselves from the Scripture teaching about contraception “Be fruitful and multiply”
5. Have removed themselves from Scripture teaching about unnatural (homo)sexuality (see Paul)

They have found a home among one of the more than 22,000 Christian sects that tolerate whatever the secular world serves up. What next?

Twinkie,

If you desire to be faithful to God, than start by being faithful to his word.

For example, Jesus praises “celibacy” when it is done for “the sake of His Kingdom”

So on one hand, Jesus praises celibacy, but you, who call yourself “faithful” calls celibacy as “unnatural”. Jesus of course also praises the vocation of matrimony for those who choose this path.

To be “faithful” is to open your heart to the love of the Father by accepting his word. Maybe you need to truly examine the Word in the following verses - Matt. 19:11-12, Matt. 19:29, 1 Cor. 7:27, 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, and reconsider your openness to God’s word.

Lastly, it is quite duplicitous on your behalf to make targeted, biased claims about Catholicism, and then when exposed as being prejudiced, retreat under your claim that you are just being “faithful”. If you cannot speak from a position of fairness, truth and justice, then you are far from being “faithful”.

You asked:How is my post a casual relationship with truth?

I will show you.

You said: You are surely not telling me that extreme pressure is and has not been put upon many a young man to fulfill his mama and papa’s dreams of becoming a priest, the height of prestige in the Catholic Church - which means that he HAS TO REMAIN CELIBATE. So, priests are DISALLOWED to marry and it has wreaked havoc on that organization and cost millions of hard earned dollars that ordinary, poor parishioners lovingly placed in the collection plates. I’m sorry, but it is disgusting.

That is BS.

Or, I would argue, once a person has a personal experience with the Holy Spirit, they no longer need a priest or pope to tell them what the "Real Presence" is.

It would be more accurate to state the Pope or the Priest “teaches” what the Real Presence is. You ever tried to teach somebody something and they didn’t believe you?

They have experience Him personally. No more.

I would suggest there is more. The "easy believism" of Protestantism can be quite attractive to some Catholics. Your silence regarding my divorce/re-marriage question helps to illustrate my point.

I told you we disagree

Yes, at best we can agree to disagree.

---my point was, despite the original article, this is absolutely not a one-way street

I agree

and far more people are leaving the Catholic church than joining it if you exclude Latin Americans/immigrants.

We will gladly give you our CINO’s and backfill with the Latin immigrants. Since illegals tend not to register with a local Parish, the immigrants accounted for in the survey are here legally. As for the illegals, I’m for sealing the borders and sending them home.

Taking in our CINO’s will also help in re-establishing the WASP population. It’s been declining since the 70’s because of contraception and abortion.

Disallowing marriage is ABNORMAL and scripturally condemned

Think again. Jesus wasn’t married and neither were many of the Apostles.

and disobeying clear scripture always causes problems.

Agreed.

The HIDING of the rampant homosexual problem among Catholic priests by Catholic hierarchy for decades is disgusting.

Agreed

I am neither CATHOLIC nor PROTESTANT in the eyes of the Lord

Got it. Just you, your bible and the Holy Spirit. Sorta defeats the purpose of Christ establishing a Church and then commanding his disciples to go forth and teach all nations doesn’t it?

BTW, you never answered my question, “Please tell me what is to be believed.”

Which is worse? The rampant tendency among the Protestants to practice “musical divorces and remarriages” or the hypocritical practice among the Catholic hierarchy to declare marriages of long duration as “annulled” so the Kennedys and others can legally dump their wives and children in order to remarry their latest mistresses?

Musical divorces and remarriages is worse. It clearly violates God’s word. There have been abuses in the annulment process but that does not invalidate the teaching.

Wassup with you and Catholicism, the Catholic church and Catholics?

You show up on every Catholic thread bashing everything and anything about Catholicism, Catholics & the Catholic church.?

FYI, genius, we are ALL sinners.
gezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

I guess what they say is true, “Catholicism is last ‘safe’ bigotry!”
And you apparently are vying for chairman of the board.

“Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God . .”

Christ = The Word of God
The Holy Spirit in the inner man, provided we have believed Christ and asked our Heavenly Father for the Holy Spirit to guide us.
The written Word . . which is needful for all men.

I did NOT say that NOT BEING MARRIED is abnormal. I said that DISALLOWING (as the Roman Catholic Church does in the case of its priests) marriage forces men, who MAY have made youthful choices for the wrong reasons, to live in a state of abnormality, homosexuality and hypocrisy or else the shame of forsaking the priesthood. REALITY has produced the revolting developments that have cost RCC members (ordinary hard-working people) millions of dollars.

No, you don’t actually “get it”, you can’t really “get it” from the vantage point of any other person until you walk a few steps in their shoes.

Tell you what is to be believed? - The Roman Catholic Church hierarchy and mans’ tradition have already done that.
You’ll have to research that yourself if you still have questions. We all have to do that for ourselves.

The standard Roman Catholic’s answer to any comment on the centuries old trails of rivers of blood and “abuses” is just the standard “oh, yes, there have been abuses - but, oh well, they ALL have done it!”.

When we revert to corrupt communication coming out of our mouths (as in your “BS” comment), we have begun to doubt our own argument. BS clearly means “bullsh!t”, so don’t toy with me.

Simply admitting the possiblity that our sacred cows stink to high heaven isn’t easy, is it? What do you think Jesus would say about a stinking sacred cow - whatever it might be? - Only the Truth can clean up a situation. Hiding behind data and statistics, or the old “well, they ALL do it!” reply won’t clean up anything. Until the lay persons rise up in unison and demand accountability, it won’t happen; and most lay persons are powerless in the face of a hierarchy which they think to be “God’s men”. (This is also true of the “pastor/priest” in the Protestant arena.) Power is so heady. - Just ask Hillary!

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