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Posted on 02/28/2008 4:40:37 PM PST by Alex Murphy
NEW YORK, N.Y. (Catholic League) - Yesterday, Senator John McCain said he was “very honored by Pastor John Hagee’s endorsement.”
The Republican presidential hopeful also called Hagee “the staunchest leader of our Christian evangelical movement,” citing the minister’s pro-Israel stance.
Catholic League president Bill Donohue addressed this today:
“There are plenty of staunch evangelical leaders who are pro-Israel, but are not anti-Catholic. John Hagee is not one of them. Indeed, for the past few decades, he has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church.
For example, he likes calling it ‘The Great Whore,’ an ‘apostate church,’ the ‘anti-Christ,’ and a ‘false cult system.’ To hear the bigot in his own words, click here. http://youtube.com/watch?v=uViQ0hVV57Q
Note: he isn’t talking about the Buddhists.
“In Hagee’s latest book, Jerusalem Countdown, he calls Hitler a Catholic who murdered Jews while the Catholic Church did nothing. ‘The sell-out of Catholicism to Hitler began not with the people but with the Vatican itself,’ he writes.
“For the record, Hitler persecuted the Catholic Church and was automatically excommunicated in 1931—two years before he assumed power—when he acted as best man at Joseph Goebbel’s Protestant wedding. Hitler even bragged about his separation from the Church.
As for doing nothing about the Holocaust, Sir Martin Gilbert reminds us that Goebbels denounced Pope Pius XII for his 1942 Christmas message criticizing the Nazis (the New York Times lauded the pope for doing so in an editorial for two years in a row).
Much to Hagee’s chagrin, Gilbert also says that Pius XII saved three quarters of the Jews in Rome, and that more Jews were saved proportionately in Catholic countries than Protestant countries. Indeed, Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide credited the Catholic Church with saving 860,000 Jews. No religion can match that.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
Thanks. I started where you are. When I found that the lies told about what bthe RCC teaches were, well just that, lies, I started looking more carefully. To avoid following me, never read Scott Hahn’s book, never read the Baltimore Catechism, never actually read what the Church teaches.
And while I do appreciate the welcome, the RCC teaches that I was welcomed when I was baptized in the Methodist Church since they use the same matter (water) form (”I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”) and intent that all Christians have when we are baptized, the joining in belief in the Salvic Truth taught by Our Lord Jesus Christ.
The usual Catholic bashing aside...
As a Catholic, the irony to me is in that the Catholic League is finding fault with McCain via Hagee, yet Catholics are one of abortionist Hillary Clinton’s most dependable voting blocs.
Why is Hagee an important story whereas Clinton and Obama’s fervent support for abortion; and the acceptance of that position by many Catholics, not a huge story.
You’ll be pleased to know that I have 2 of Hahn’s books on my shelf AND have read them.
They were unconvincing, and while they were appropriate critiques in some areas, they totally failed to convince of RC Mariology. Mariology is a totally unprovable albatross about the necks of Catholic Christians, and they should be told the truth that there is absolutely no biblical basis for the Immaculate Conception or Assumption.
Additionally, the IC is illogical and the Assumption is purely emotional.
I don’t wish to offend you, nor even argue with you, a fellow Christian, so I’ll just drop this here. You can have the last word.
My sense is that even Scott Hahn (and especially Jerry Kirk’s daughter) know these things deep in the honest side of their hearts.
Winderful. Let me suggest, gently, that the Catechism with it’s careful Biblical scholarship is the place to truly read what is taught. Assuming arguendo that the IC and Marionology are the big issue for you, what are your issues with the Sacramental divide?
Catholics, whether they realize it or not, argue for “Spiritual Presence,” and that is exactly the same as I believe.
***The way Calvinists defend this book, you’d think it was scripture to them. It makes you wonder why it is so important to them for the entire content of this book to be true. ***
As long as the Church exists, it demonstrates that their man-made fantasies are false. A methodology utilized through the ages is to attack and defame the ideal, with the purpose of tearing it down so that a lesser entity can take its place.
Power, pride and hubris. They use St. Augustine with abandon to point out their disagreements with Catholicism, yet only seem to bring forth those statements or ideas formed during his years of heresy.
They won’t touch him during his sane years. I have had a couple of them sneer at my tagline; when I informed them of the source (they really are an uninformed lot, most of them), the silence became defeaning.
***Perhaps those more articulate than I am can explain in simple words the good “DR”’s misunderstanding of the word “automatically”?***
It’s unlikely. Just like the good Dr.’s Bible appears to have had substantial portions removed (most of the Gospel pages, for instance), I think that posts that contradict her viewpoint are somehow Houdini’d away as well.
An example was the question of what Catholics and Protestants thought was a good summary of Scripture. I posted the Catholic view five or six times within the thread and it never seemed to appear upon her screen. Sad, really.
The difference is that Foxman is a liberal and he is careful not to cause divisions on his own side.
Donohue is literally taking religious disagreements and turning them into political ones to the detriment of social conservatives.
Hitler despised Christianity:
"It is not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
"Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its key note is intolerance. Without Christianity, we should not have had Islam. The Roman Empire, under Germanic influence would have developed in the direction of world domination and humanity would not have extinguished fifteen centuries of civilization at a single stroke. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that was in the natural order of things."
Source: Transcripts of Hitler's conversations (5 July 1941 - 30 November 1944), made under the supervision of Martin Bormann, published in the UK as Hitler's Table Talks (1953).
Yep. And most of Hitler's coterie were practicing Roman Catholics.
Authoritarianism appeals to some people.
"Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit." -- Psalms 51:12
Excellent post, I agree. I’m also hoping to extend this method past Lent too; getting “down and dirty” helps no one. Also, thinking that getting the last word in is always helpful isn’t very helpful either. I’ve found since not worrying about either of these two things has not only brought me peace, but also, many times when I give other’s the last word, it openly shows how it is they who “didn’t get it”, and no obsessing over getting the last word could show that any better. IOW, I’ve decided to trust in the reasonableness of any lurker that might be watching, and ultimately, entrust all my efforts to God’s providence.
As for the topic of this thread, I’ve said before on other fora, but I’ll say it here: I don’t care about someone’s religious preferences with regards to politics. If the endorsement of John Hagee brings some Dispensationalists who hate the Church to vote for John McCain, so be it. I couldn’t care less if some, who believe in the lies of Hagge vis a vis the “Whore of Babylon”, are convinced by him, or anyone, to vote for McCain. It’s the bottom line I’m concerned with.
Not to be to disagreeable, but I think they were much more into the occult. I agree the RCC made some very big mistakes leading up to the war, during the war and after the war, but wouldn't it be more accurate to ascribe those mistakes to the political nature of the RCC?
Prior to and during the initial stages of WWII they didn't know who would win and were hedging their bets. Their actions are almost always governed by "what's in the church's best interest".
Thank you so much.
Lent is a big time for me. I’m having some problems with resolve this year. What I gave up has left me cranky and unpleasant. Slowly, I’m realizing that it’s not what we give up, but what we do that Our Lord really wants.
I’m not sure He wants me tiffing with fellow Christians. Whether they think I am a Christian or not.
Bless you, FRiend!
And most of Hitler's coterie were practicing Roman Catholics.EXCOMMUNICATED former Catholics "Dr", FORMER Catholics. See post 32.
Incorrect, "Doctor". In February 1931 the German Bishops excommunicated all Nazis and later directed all Catholics that they could not vote for a Nazi in the 1932 election. Lest you foolishly believe that Hitler considered himself to still be a Catholic I suggest you read "Hitler's Table Talk".The kind of lies being told by some on this thread show the depth of ant-Catholic bigotry that exists even here. Facts matter not to the liars who hate.
See post 254 and post 32.
lol. Looks like a few of them didn't get the memo. Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels and Reinhard Heydrich were all practicing Roman Catholics until their death.
When history contradicts the sad lies, print the lies.
A little truth here please because many of Nazi Germany's leadership were, like Adolf Hitler, Roman Catholics, people like Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, and Rudolf Hoess, (not to be confused with Hitler's Deputy Führer and secretary, Rudolf Hess). Hermann Goering, on the other hand, had mixed Catholic-Protestant parentage, while Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, and Adolf Eichmann had Protestant backgrounds. While Hitler and Himmler didn't participate in Mass, Heydrich, Goebbels certainly did. They were never excommunicated!
Thanks for the ping, but I have already exposed the anti-Catholic FR bigots on this thread and on many other occasions.
“Anti-Catholicism, the last safe bigotry.”
No matter what their background, I would wager that it’s safe to say they were never regenerated Christians to begin with. Hitler is rumored to have Jewish blood, but it’s a guarantee he wasn’t Jewish. The church is full of tares, always has been.Here’s the danger of thinking someone is regenerated at birth or with infant baptism or with adult baptism, when there is no regeneration.
Amen.
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