LDS defend the faith as Christian

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 10/07/07 | By Peggy Fletcher Stack

[colorcountry]

Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"

{snip}

The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."

[fproy2222]

it was true then and it is true now

[fproy2222]

so did the MEN who decided which writings to include and witch to leave out have authority from God, like a prophet?

Remember, there are more writings from the same time period by the same people, and the books in the bible were not decided on untill much later.

ps thanks for your service (Retired Army Chaplain. True support of the troops means praying for US to WIN the war!)

[xzins]

Thanks for your kind words about our military.

The early churches did not decide on anything other than the AUTHENTICITY of the writer. Once they established that a writing had apostolic authority, they accepted it as binding on them.

It would be like your receiving a note that seemed to be from your boss. Once you were able to determine that it actually DID come from your boss, then you would take it seriously. If you found out that it did not come from your boss, then you would not take it seriously.

[Elsie]

Define faith, then try it.

So you are saying you DON'T want to find any evidence?

[Elsie]

If you found out that it did not come from your boss, then you would not take it seriously.

Define Faith: then try it.

[xzins]

I don’t understand your comment. Can you rephrase it? Thanks.

[greyfoxx39]

Your last paragraph is a fabrication based upon one line of one discourse by Brigham Young, regarding the establishment of a “Theocracy” which NEVER existed. And he was talking about voluntary blood atonement as a possibility. This, of course, was NEVER practiced by the Church.

To some in Utah, the grisly 19th century nature of a firing squad clashes with this state's modern image. With a booming economy revolving around computer software and ski tourism, Utah is to be the host of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

Utah's 19th century history helps explain why it is now the only state in the union to allow condemned prisoners to choose to die by the firing squad.

In an early radical phase, Utah's Mormon settlers believed that the sin of murder could only be atoned by shedding the murderer's blood.

"There are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or turtle doves cannot remit," Brigham Young, a Mormon prophet, told his pioneering flock here in 1856. "But they must be atoned by the blood of man."

For more than 30 years, this belief in blood atonement, and the practice of polygamy, blocked accommodation between Utah's Mormon "Kingdom" and Washington. In 1890, the church formally disavowed polygamy and blood atonement. In 1896, Utah joined the Union as a state. But repeated pronouncements by the Mormons, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have been unable to stamp out polygamy or a belief in blood atonement.

"Most Mormons in Utah would use blood atonement as their rationale for supporting capital punishment in general, and the firing squad in particular," said L. Kay Gillespie, a professor of criminal justice at Weber State University in Ogden. He said 39 of the state's executions since 1847 had been by firing squad.

Utah Debates Firing Squads In Clash of Past and Present January 1996

More parsing and obsfucation.

[Old Mountain man]

NOBODY said it would get you “born again”. I said that obedience to the commandments was necessary. Says so in the new testament.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Or the mormon Jesus Christ, who was created as a spirit being,
wasn’t God, but a man, and became a god later??

+++++++++++++++++

Why do you use half truths? Or do you just repeat what others have said?”

No. The mormon Jesus is a created being who is different
than the Biblical Jesus Christ. BTW, mormonism is the world
of half truths - Satan’s Fashion Show - rolling out heresies
the Christian Church condemned thousands of years ago.

ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

fproy,
I’ve yet to meet a single adherent of mormonism who
can intelligently discuss the BIBLE. Unilaterally, they
all follow the LDS See & Say method of seeing the same
word in an English translation and they assuming it means
the same thing each time it appears. But then it doesn’t
matter, because once the leadership has spoken, the hive
obeys.

ampu

[colorcountry]

It's a funny thing, those golden plates were found in upstate New York. The LDS Church owns the site and has an expensive visitor center there and a huge "pageant" that reinacts it's own history every year.

Joseph Smith himself said that he found a cave on the very Hill Cumorah where he found the golden plate (the Book of Mormon) with artifacts...swords, shields, etc. Yet the LDS Church has never excavated the hillside. Isn't it marvelous that their faith is so strong that they won't even LOOK for evidence? LOL

[greyfoxx39]

 

"If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." LDS Apostle, George A. Smith

Authority Claims of LDS Leaders Early Mormon leaders made clear claims about their own spiritual authority as church leaders.  They claimed to speak for God and expected their words to be accepted as Scripture. They  invited outsiders to test and challenge their beliefs.  LDS prophets and apostles also made it clear they considered all other churches false and satanically inspired. Few of these claims are made as openly or as vigorously today.  That is understandable given the Mormon Church's attempts to mainstream itself and become accepted as another "Christian" Church. However, the fact remains that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints considers itself the only true church on the earth today and the only one with the right and authority to speak and act for God. Authority claims of the LDS Church Joseph Smith -  "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture ..." (November 1831) Joseph Smith - "Wednesday, 8 —This morning, I read German, and visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that 'a prophet is always a prophet;' but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such ...'"  (1843) Wilford Woodruff - "There are a few thoughts that I wish to present to the congregation touching one principle that has been alluded to by the brethren,-- namely, in regard to following the instructions and counsels of those who lead us.    "... if the Prophet of God should tell me that a certain principle or theory which I might have learned was not true , I do not care what my ideas might have been, I should consider it my duty, as the suggestion of my file leader, to abandon that principle or theory."  (1857) Orson Pratt - The authority held by the Mormon church is "the true and only standard here upon the face of our earth; and to this standard all people, nations, and tongues must come, or be eventually taken from the earth" (1860) Brigham Young - "Every intelligent person under the heavens that does NOT, when informed, acknowledge that Joseph Smith, jun. is a Prophet of God, is in darkness, and is opposed to us and to Jesus and his kingdom on the earth."  (1860) Brigham Young - "This generation, however, is not left without a test. I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist."  (1862)  Brigham Young - "The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth." (1862) Brigham Young - Mormonism is the "only system of religion known in heaven or on earth that can exalt a man to the Godhead" (1863) Brigham Young - "What man or woman on earth, what spirit in the spirit-world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens?" (1867) Brigham Young - "I will take up the text again -- I am responsible for the doctrine I teach. ... If they will hear it, well; if they will not, I am clear of their blood." (1869) Brigham Young - "I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of nations -- that Brigham Young has said 'when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.' I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God."  (1870) Brigham Young - "I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom ... I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men , that they may not call Scripture.  Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually."  (1870) Wilford Woodruff - "... In my public teaching I never permit my mind to follow in any channel except that which the Spirit dictates to me, and this is the position we all occupy when we meet with the Saints ... " (1873) Charles W. Penrose  "Our organization is a very glorious one.  It is a perfect organization -- perfect -- because it is divine. It was not made by man.  It was not originated by Joseph Smith, or by any of his associates. It came down from above, direct from eternal worlds. It was not taken out of the Bible. It was not taken out of the Book of Mormon, or any other book"  (1883) "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.  When they propose a plan — it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe.  When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way." Ward Teachers Message, Desert News, Church Section, p. 5 (May 26, 1945) Joseph Fielding Smith - "What is Scripture? When one of the brethren stands before a congregation of the people today, and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him, he speaks that which the Lord would have him speak.  It is just as much scripture as anything you will find written in any of these records, and yet we call these the standard works of the Church." Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 186 (1954) Joseph Fielding Smith - "Mormonism as it is called must stand or falls on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen.  There is no middle ground."  Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188 (1954) "It was the Lord Himself who installed prophets in this modern Church. ... This, too, has He done for the successors to the Prophet Joseph, even down to our present wonderful and humble leader.  He, too, is inspired of God.  He, too, is a revelator.  He, too, is the voice of the Almighty to the saints of this day." Editorial, Church News, September 26, p. 12 (1981) "Words of Our Living Prophets — In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, Church publications, and  instructions to local priesthood leaders. 'We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God' (Articles of Faith 1:9)." Gospel Principles, p. 55 (1992) Condemnation of other churches Joseph Smith - Joseph claims God told him all churches of his day were wrong, all creeds an abomination in his sight and all professors were corrupt.  (1842) Orson Pratt - Roman Catholic church never had authority, it was founded by the Devil. Protestant reformers did not restore the church, their authority came from the Catholics who only had authority from the Devil.  (1854) Orson Pratt - "Baptism is just as essential to salvation, as Faith and Repentance. — Without being immersed in water no man can enter into the fulness of Celestial glory. ... But who in this generation have authority to baptize?"  Only the Latter-day Saints.  "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon'" (1854) John Taylor - "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. ... It is a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."  (1858) Bruce R. McConkie - "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this 'church which is the most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He 'saw the devil that he was the foundation of it' and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (1 Nephi 13:1-10)"  Mormon Doctrine, p. 130 (1958) Bruce R. McConkie - "Harlots. See Church of the Devil, Sex Immorality.  Literally an harlot is a prostitute; figuratively it is any apostate church. Nephi, speaking of harlots in the literal sense and while giving a prophetic description of the Catholic Church, recorded that he 'saw the devil that he was the foundation of it.' ... Then speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he designated the Catholic Church as 'the mother of harlots' (1 Nephi 13:34; 14:15-17), a title which means that the protestant churches, the harlot daughters which broke off from the great and abominable church, would themselves be apostate churches."  Mormon Doctrine, pp. 314-315 (1958) Leaders invite challenges to Mormonism Joseph Smith - "Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private" (1831) Orson Pratt  - "convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information"  (1854) George A. Smith - "If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." (1871) Brigham Young - "I have had many revelations; I have seen and heard for myself, and know these things are true, and nobody on earth can disprove them.  ... I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you.  Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test." (1873) Brigham Young - "I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life. ... If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason."   (1873) Wilford Woodruff  - "I am willing to exchange all the errors and false notions I have for one truth, and should consider that I had made a good bargain. We are not afraid of light and truth. Our religion embraces every truth in heaven, earth or hell; it embraces all truth" Authority Claims of LDS Leaders

[Old Mountain man]

Glad you understand that your post is more parsing and obfuscation. The death penalty has historically been used as punishment for murder. Have you ever seen a person that died from hanging? Not a pretty sight. And before you ask, yes I have seen several. I have also seen gunshot deaths. Neither is pleasant. Personally, as a Mormon, I would either go for the death penalty for murderers and child molesters or exile to a well guarded island for life.

[Old Mountain man]

That would be Galatians 5. You would also like Chapter 6.

[Old Mountain man]

YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO ATTACK MY RELIGION AND YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW THE BASIC THINGS THAT JESUS CHRIST SAID IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?????????????????????????

Bless you and I encourage you to read the admonitions of our Lord. His commandments are a joyful revelation from the Holy Bible to us.

[Jmouse007]

First off it is "prophet" not "profit", secondly, President Hinckley was directly addressing the fact that genuine Christians accuse Mormons and Mormonism of NOT worshiping or following the traditional Christ of the Bible and Christianity, to which your so-called prophet/President Hinckley freely admitted that that accusation was/is in deed correct, Mormons do not worship or follow the Christ of the Bible or of Christianity but another/false christ of Joseph Smith's imaginings:

Geneva, Switzerland, June 6, 1998. The Deseret News reported: "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.

'NO, I DON'T. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is NOT THE CHRIST OF WHOM I SPEAK. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.' " (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7 Emphasis mine)

Mr Hinkley spoke the truth and has not retracted his comments that Mormons worship and follow another, different Jesus than the one found in the Bible, procalaimed throughout history and followed by genuine Christians throughout the world. Having both studied Mormonism and taught Christology, I can tell you that he is correct in his assessment.

[greyfoxx39]

Your post #885And he was talking about voluntary blood atonement as a possibility. This, of course, was NEVER practiced by the Church.

My post #927 from the article I linked:For more than 30 years, this belief in blood atonement, and the practice of polygamy, blocked accommodation between Utah's Mormon "Kingdom" and Washington.

Exactly HOW does your post The death penalty has historically been used as punishment for murder. Have you ever seen a person that died from hanging? Not a pretty sight. And before you ask, yes I have seen several. I have also seen gunshot deaths. Neither is pleasant. Personally, as a Mormon, I would either go for the death penalty for murderers and child molesters or exile to a well guarded island for life. relate to whether the mormon church was, for 30 years, unable to reach "accommodation between Utah's Mormon "Kingdom" and Washington"?

As I said, you are obfuscating:

Main Entry: ob·fus·cate Pronunciation: \'äb-f?-?skat; äb-'f?s-?kat, ?b-\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): ob·fus·cat·ed; ob·fus·cat·ing Etymology: Late Latin obfuscatus, past participle of obfuscare, from Latin ob- in the way + fuscus dark brown — more at ob-, dusk Date: 1577 transitive verb 1 a: darken b: to make obscure 2: confuse intransitive verb : to be evasive, unclear, or confusing — ob·fus·ca·tion \?äb-(?)f?s-'ka-sh?n\ noun — ob·fus·ca·to·ry \äb-'f?s-k?-?to?r-e, ?b-\ adjective

[greyfoxx39]

Crickets....chirp...chirp

[fproy2222]

The early churches did not decide on anything other than the AUTHENTICITY of the writer. Once they established that a writing had apostolic authority, they accepted it as binding on them.

It would be like your receiving a note that seemed to be from your boss. Once you were able to determine that it actually DID come from your boss, then you would take it seriously. If you found out that it did not come from your boss, then you would not take it seriously.

++++++++++++++++++++++

There are writings by the same people who had apostolic authority that have been authenticated since the cannon of the bible was set.

Should these writings be added to the bible?

[fproy2222]

“Or the mormon Jesus Christ, who was created as a spirit being,
wasn’t God, but a man, and became a god later??
+++++++++++++++++
Why do you use half truths? Or do you just repeat what others have said?”

No. The mormon Jesus is a created being who is different
than the Biblical Jesus Christ. BTW, mormonism is the world
of half truths - Satan’s Fashion Show - rolling out heresies
the Christian Church condemned thousands of years ago.
ampu

---

You answered the wrong question, we can decuss that later, for now, WHY DO YOU TELL THE WORLD THAT WE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS SAY THINGS THAT WE DONOT SAY? YOU NEED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU SPEEK OF BEFORE YOU SAY WE BELIEVE IT.

AGAIN:::::Why do you use half truths? Or do you just repeat what others have said?”