Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
Thanks. I saw those rules, but it didn’t appear there is one which addresses this issue. That is why I asked if there is any other link which provides additional rules.
Regardless, if you find it objectionable for me to question you regarding the earlier post in relation to our current discussion, I apologize and will discontinue that practice in our future exchanges.
Best wishes.
CC just newly offfically left the reservation and feeling those anti Oaks and I am afraid it don’t wear off soon it just get uglier...
CC traded in the Sweet Spirit for a wretched one!
You haven't doomed yourself to eternal outer darkness. You are a good person who doesn't agree with the LDS church doctrine. You have raised 5 children whom you dearly love, you do have a relationship with Jesus Christ, and turned towards him again. I can't see an unjust God who would cast you into outer darkness. Another description would be to describe the denizens of "outer darkness" as those who have made a conscious and specific choice to rebel against God. You are not rebelling against God, you are trying your best to figure out who Christ is.
I've always been taught that those who will be in outer darkness (the permanent one) are the sons of perdition, those who have seen God the Father or Jesus Christ, and then denied that knowledge. Cain would be an example. Satan is an example. The third of the host in heaven who followed Satan and won't bodies will be in outer darkness. If Moses had denied seeing God on Mount Sinai, he would be in outer darkness. Joseph Smith would be in outer darkness if he denied seeing God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
Here is the official word from lds.orgHell
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76: 81-86; 88: 100-101).Also from lds.org Sons of perdition:Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88: 35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76: 43-46).
The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness. David’s soul shall not be left in hell, Ps. 16: 10 (Ps. 86: 13). Go into hell, into that fire that never shall be quenched, Mark 9: 43 (Mosiah 2: 38). The rich man in hell lifts up his eyes, being in torment, Luke 16: 22-23 (D&C 104: 18). Death and hell delivered up the dead, Rev. 20: 13. There is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell, 1 Ne. 15: 35. The will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to bring us down to hell, 2 Ne. 2: 29. Christ prepared the way for our deliverance from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9: 10-12. Those who remain filthy go into everlasting torment, 2 Ne. 9: 16. The devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell, 2 Ne. 28: 21. Jesus hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 33: 6. Loose yourselves from the pains of hell, Jacob 3: 11. To be taken captive by the devil and led by his will to destruction are the chains of hell, Alma 12: 11. The wicked are cast into outer darkness until the time of their resurrection, Alma 40: 13-14. The filthy would be more miserable to dwell with God than to dwell in hell, Morm. 9: 4. The punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, D&C 19: 10-12. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels, D&C 29: 37-38. Those who acknowledge God are delivered from death and the chains of hell, D&C 138: 23.
The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include1 those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and2 those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88: 32, 35).And more from lds.org Unpardonable Sin:None of them is lost but the son of perdition, John 17: 12. It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6: 4-6 (Heb. 10: 26-29). Mercy hath no claim on that man and his final doom is never-ending torment, Mosiah 2: 36-39. He is as though there was no redemption made, Mosiah 16: 5. Those who deny Christ’s miracles to get gain shall become like the son of perdition, 3 Ne. 29: 7. They will receive no forgiveness in this world or the next, D&C 76: 30-34 (D&C 84: 41; 132: 27). They are the only ones who will not be redeemed from the second death, D&C 76: 34-48. Sons of perdition deny the Holy Spirit after receiving it, D&C 76: 35. Sons of perdition deny the Son after the Father has revealed him, D&C 76: 43. Cain shall be called Perdition, Moses 5: 22-26.
The sin of denying the Holy Ghost, a sin that cannot be forgiven.Finally, the Lord told Joseph Smith that He never fully reveals to men the punishments of outer darkness, but only brief visions thereof. Consider the wording of this revelation as compared to that used by Jesus in the apocryphal Gospel of Bartholomew:Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men, Matt. 12: 31-32 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10). It is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6: 4-6. If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10: 26. If ye deny the Holy Ghost and know that ye deny it, this is a sin which is unpardonable, Alma 39: 5-6 (Jacob 7: 19). They have no forgiveness, having denied the Only Begotten Son, having crucified him unto themselves, D&C 76: 30-35. The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, which is shedding innocent blood after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, D&C 132: 26-27.
And the end thereof, neither the place therof, nor their torment, no man knows; Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.... and the earth was rolled up like a volume of a book and the deep [hell] was revealed unto them. And when the apostles saw it, they fell on their faces upon the earth. But Jesus raised them up, saying: Said I not unto you, "It is not good for you to see the deep". And again he beckoned unto the angels, and the deep was covered up.
“CC traded in the Sweet Spirit for a wretched one!”
It is wild oats not oaks, and I’ve been feeling pretty free from the Morgue since about 1986.
I can be sweet, just ask the Flying Inmans....They seem to like my “wretched” spirit.
Oh and resty,.....don’t be a stranger. Ya hear?
That's the nicest thing I have heard from someone LDS in years. Thanks.
Navajo. It is pretty steep, but short of a mile. You can actually hike down to Queen's garden, which is not so steep, but longer and come up Navajo. Or the other way...
That sounds like my trip to Zion’s National Park in April. I went to take a picture and the batteries in my camera were dead.
My brother-in-law and nephew always do the GPS caches hunt when we go.
Giardia can be cured. If I was in that situation, I would drink the water. That is truly sad...
CC's our cute, lovable heretic.
You said: There seems to be certain silence.
This in no way implies correctness in your prior post.
Maybe they don’t care.
Maybe it’s been hashed so many times it’s not worth the time.
Maybe they are spending time with family or work.
Maybe...
Ya never know.
If I could always remember how to spell critics I would say critics.
Someday I drawing a blank that is the inconstancies of having dyx’s sometimes the synops are firing and someday they have shorted out!
Please clarify for me. Sometime ago I asked you:
“In your world, should you be able to refuse service to a Mormon patronize your restaurant because of his or her religion?
Should you be able to refuse to hire a Mormon because of his or her religion?
Should you be able to refuse to rent your apartment to a Mormon because of his or her religion?”
To which you responded:
Yes, I just might,
I am forbidden to ask their religion in those circumstances, but if they are forthcoming with the information and there is another suitable person who is also waiting for a table or renting my apartment or seeking employment, it may very well sway my opinion.
Cold hard fact brother.
It is MY restaurant and MY apartment and MY business. I can judge suitability on any criteria I choose. I may not let anyone know what criteria I based my decision, but it is still my decision.”
****
It looks like discrimination to me just like it was for Black’s in the 50’s.
If in Utah some of the questions one might asked if LDS is that of conviences of Temple and meetinghouse or types of school and therefore that knowledge would be known.
If one were to go her resturaunt and not have coffer or honor the words of wisdom she might make do a phonephoto and when you appear again she would refused sevice!
*********
You just never know their might be a grassroots who would like to run the LDS out of Utah.
I heard similar expression from fastcoyote, and maybe Utah binger and who know how many others have this agenda?
CC are you member of Christian Identity?
Well at least my alter ego can spell and use correct grammar!:)
You are such a sweet spirit resty. You would never falsly accuse someone, or assign motives, or harbor hatred.
Oh if we all could be as sweet as you....
No I read you post CC and you indicated it yourself and I read between the lines!
I also heard express something simular maybe he would like to clarify it?
And by all means if you did not mean that you should have never signled out the LDS, but you can clarify if you would care too!
resty, you cute little devil you. Why, you can turn and twist and read anything you want into anything I have to say.
By your own definition I have a wretched spirit, I’m anti-mormon, and a stranger to you.
I’m trying to understand your post, but it’s useless. Go ahead and flame and ascribe motive to a post that should never be here and has been taken out of context to your dear, little, hearts content.
If it makes you feel better.
God bless ya, resty.
"Don't jump threads - If you get involved in an argument in one thread, it's considered poor manners to restart the previous argument in the middle of an unrelated thread."
Excuse me a cataract in one eye and a fungus in the other eye LOL
My mortal probation continues to hit a snags!:)
It is amusing to watch and I welcome the opportunities to be alerted so I can learn how better to comply to the will of my Lord while my inperfections are being resloved!:)
Oh CC you are more than welcome to make clear so one does not misinterpred what you were saying!
Thanks for the fascinating link!!
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