Posted on 05/18/2007 6:16:16 AM PDT by Reo
Last month, Francis Beckwith--president of the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS), noted evangelical philosopher, "God-blogger" and professor of church-state relations at Baylor University--was received into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church. Shortly after, he resigned his presidency and membership in ETS, sending shock waves through the religious blogosphere and parts of the evangelical community.
Read the full article at the link.
(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...
Hate to tell you this but there is no such thing as the “American” Catholic Church. We are all members of one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church — the Catholic Church.
**My personal experience is the opposite...starting as a catholic and movign to Baptist.**
I really doubt that you ‘left’ the Catholic Church. Unless you went through a lot of paperwork, you are still a Catholic.
We welcome you with open arms at any time.
FYI, the Catholics have not changed the Bible, the Protestants did (Martin Luther) so you might rethink your logic on who changed what.
Kill him, he knows too much!!
LOL, whatever pal.
Interesting comparison. Both religious viewpoints are apocalyptic, assuming an inevitable global triumph of evil within history. Both are obsessed with trying to predict the future which they assume is full of terrible things. When I go biking, I like to sing a little hymn I learned 50 years ago during Mass ...
| Thy reign extend, O King benign To every land and nation. For in Thy kingdom, Lord Divine Alone we find salvation. (Chorus) Christ Jesus Victor, |
Let me cite my favorite aphorism on "prophecy teaching:"
By discovering that the successor of Peter has such authority.
Not according to 67 of 70 Church Fathers, Rome didn't.
Members of one confession are often called heretics by those who believe another way - or worse, e.g. gnostics, pagans, Hell-bound, demonics and so forth.
Open religious debate seems to attract the most rude and hateful and un-Christ-like among us. But the "winners" unsurprisingly are always the ones who turn the other cheek, i.e. are kind to the ones who are not kind to them.
On the Religion Forum it is tolerable to defend or prosecute a belief on open threads - providing the remarks are not directed personally to another Freeper. Post 21 would not have been allowed on the Religion Forum.
Now that the thread has been moved - all participants must comply with the guidelines; click on my profile page for more information.
Some quotations from the fathers on Petrine Primacy.
-A8
Oops!
We welcome you with open arms at any time.
We welcome you back with open arms at any time.
That was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek response...Guess it didn't come across as such...Sorry about that...
A brotherly, charitable tone from the author. A number of Freepers would do well to take note of his classy attitude.
Because, like, hey, we Catholics of course don't give a hoot about Jesus Christ or the Bible. It's not like the foundation of our religion or anything... And I don't know why the Pope just wrote a book defending the historicity of Jesus Christ as found in the Gospels. Why can't the Pope get with the program? He should realize that we worship only Mary as a mother goddess, not Jesus.
“We honor Mary; we do not worship her”
Some do, most don’t. Fatima and Guadalupe at least come close to worship, if not officially, then at least on the part of a lot of believers.
How? Here's how - because Jesus told Peter, the first Pope,
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The overwhelming majority of the Church Fathers agreed that Matthew 16:18 that you cited applied to every genuine Christian, not to Peter exclusively.
Augustine sums it up nicely:
But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, ‘Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God.’ One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.’ Then He added, ‘and I say unto thee.’ As if He had said, ‘Because thou hast said unto Me, “Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;” I also say unto thee, “Thou art Peter.” ’ For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. ‘Therefore,’ he saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which Thou hast confessed, upon this rock which Thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee. For men who wished to be built upon men, said, ‘I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter. But others who did not wish to built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, ‘But I am of Christ.’ And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?’ And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter. This same Peter therefore who had been by the Rock pronounced ‘blessed,’ bearing the figure of the Church ---Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VI, St. Augustin, Sermon XXVI.1-4, pp. 340-341
In the Matthew 16 passage, Peter is a figurative representative of the church.
Augustine further makes the expressed point that all the Apostles were equals in all aspects, and that each receives the keys, as with all genuine Christians, and not Peter exclusively.
Before his passion the Lord Jesus, as you know, chose those disciples of his, whom he called apostles. Among these it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given the privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, ‘To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ (Mt 16:19). After all, it isn’t just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged pre–eminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted to all.
I mean, to show you that it is the Church which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord says in another place to all his apostles: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit;’ and straightway, ‘Whose sins you forgive, they will be forgiven them; whose sins you retain, they will be retained’ (Jn 20:22-23). This refers to the keys, about which it is said, ‘whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven’ (Mt 16:19). But that was said to Peter. To show you that Peter at that time stood for the universal Church, listen to what is said to him, what is said to all the faithful, the saints: ‘If your brother sins against you, correct him between you and himself alone’---John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (Hyde Park: New City, 1994), Sermons, III/8 (273-305A), On the Saints, Sermon 295.1-3, pp. 197-198
Augustine, along with the vast majority(95%) of the church fathers did not interpret any Roman primacy through Peter in the slightest, quite the opposite actually.
Augustine's very protestant teaching on Matthew 16:18:
Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.---Sermon 229
Some quotations from the fathers on Petrine Primacy.
Yes, I'm familiar with those, and none of them communicate any Roman papal primacy through Peter. NONE. Rome goes back and reads it's own self claims of Roman petrine primacy into them where they do not exist.
What is this? The Catholic Church or the Hotel California? Thanks for the invite, but I'm not interested.
Some quotations from the fathers on Petrine Primacy.
Did you notice what Augustine said? Here it is again, as clear as Waterford crystal:
After all, it isn’t just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged pre–eminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted to all.
And Augustine is representative of the overwhelming majority of the church fathers.
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" - than the name of JESUS.
My apologies for the misunderstanding - I see a lot of far-out stuff from the fringe guys on both sides on these threads, it starts to wear thin.
Even the Orthodox disagree with you there (though disagreeing about the nature of that primacy). You must be wearing anti-Catholic glasses not to see what is obviously there.
-A8
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.