Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Yeshua and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Yeshua then left them and went away.
***
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign…
You might think that the ‘wicked and adulterous’ would be in the same category, not so.
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Jezebel and the Church
***
Revelation 2
Thyatira
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
***
Torah or Jezebel?
Proverbs 7
1 My son, keep my words, And treasure my commands within you.
2 Keep my commands and live, And my Torah as the apple of your eye. 3 Bind them on your fingers; Write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” And call understanding your nearest kin, 5 That they may keep you from the immoral woman, From the seductress who flatters with her words.
6 For at the window of my house I looked through my lattice, 7 And saw among the simple, I perceived among the youths, A young man devoid of understanding,
8 Passing along the street near her corner; And he took the path to her house 9 In the twilight, in the evening, In the black and dark night.
10 And there a woman met him, With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart. 11 She was loud and rebellious, Her feet would not stay at home.
12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square, Lurking at every corner. 13 So she caught him and kissed him; With an impudent face she said to him:
14 “ I have peace offerings with me; Today I have paid my vows. 15 So I came out to meet you, Diligently to seek your face, And I have found you.
16 I have spread my bed with tapestry, Colored coverings of Egyptian linen. 17 I have perfumed my bed With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning; Let us delight ourselves with love. 19 For my husband is not at home; He has gone on a long journey;
20 He has taken a bag of money with him, And will come home on the appointed day.” 21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield, With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter, Or as a fool to the correction of the stocks, 23 Till an arrow struck his liver. As a bird hastens to the snare, He did not know it would cost his life.
24 Now therefore, listen to me, my children; Pay attention to the words of my mouth: 25 Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways, Do not stray into her paths; 26 For she has cast down many wounded, And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death.
***
Torah keeps one from the lies of Jezebel.
***
Read ‘The Prodigal Son’ (Luke 15), the older brother is Judaism, the younger Christianity. Christians are the children of God,
and Jews are the adults.
And children prefer fairy tales, do you have a Easter basket in your house?
“Just for the sake of argument”
The question was not intended as argument. I was intrigued by your statement about dispensationalists always looking prophetically at current events and wanted to see how someone who thinks that prophecy has been fulfilled would look at current events. I don’t read anything specifically prophetic into the catastrophe except the general “wars and rumors of war” statement. If it occurs it would be part of God’s permissive will in His sovereign plan for the world, just like everything that happens.
Winners and lovers shape the future.
Whiners and losers try to predict it.
This sound like some sort of repackaged, "christianized" humanism. I don't care how much of a lover you may be, you can shape nothing. To call those who search the Scriptures "whiners and loosers" is to insult the very prophets who wrote the Scriptures...
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."
I'm sorry, but that is plainly not what the text says. And that is why no dispensationalist uses that text to help interpret Matthew 24 correctly.
The prophecy was made against ancient Babylon, at least that is the correct grammatical-historical context. See verse 1 if you do not believe me.
I’m not surprised you would say otherwise since to admit the correct position would do great damage to the futurist interpretation of Matthew 24.
Daniel 7 was a vision of the end of the age. It was a vision and the prophecy is yet to take place.
Again, you are very wrong. Let’s actually look at part of Daniel 7:
I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.There is no need for you to jump forward all the way until the second coming, since this is about Messiah coming to establish His kingdom, which He plainly did at His first coming. And how do we know that? Well apart from the fact that Jesus said as much all over the NT, we also have confirmation right here in Daniel:
Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, … (v. 19)Who is this fourth beast/kingdom? Just back up a few chapters to another vision:Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.' (v. 27)
But after you [King Nebuchadnezzar] shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. … (Dan. 2:39,40)The fourth beast, ancient Rome, was vanquished by the power of the gospel in the world, under the authority given to Jesus Christ upon His ascension to the throne room of the Ancient of Days (vv. 13 & 14). He is “stone was cut out of the mountain without hands”. “And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." (Matt. 21:44) Rome was literally ground to powder by the advancing kingdom of Christ under the power of the gospel.And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure." (Dan. 2:44,45)
Even the dispensationalist knows that the fourth beat is Rome because they have to invent a brand new Roman Empire far in the future just to satisfy this prophecy when they (mistakenly) believe has not been fulfilled. But Rome is gone, never to be resurrected or revived or whatever other silly scenario you may think of.
It’s the insisting without any reference to the actual text that makes no sense to me.
What you would have people believe is that after the destruction of Jerusalem and the slaughter of the Jews the elects “comfort” comes from a “virtual” imagining of the apparition of the Lord.
Your literalist glasses are causing you to expect things not promised in the Bible, at least not in all cases. Jesus “came in clouds” as evidenced by the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed and the high priests killed off. The kingdom was transferred from the old nation to the new nation. The old temple has given way to the new temple. The old priesthood replaced by the new priests.
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.” (1 Peter 2:9,10)
I don’t know how God could have made it any clearer.
"Why do You speak to them in parables?" He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:10-15)I wonder some times if the modern church has the same affliction of spiritual blindness as ancient Israel. So many Christians are looking for the same carnal results as that generation.
Is the same true for the establishment of the modern state of Israel?
“Jesus “came in clouds” as evidenced by the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed and the high priests killed off.”
I see now, so He really didn’t mean that their redemption was near and His angels didn’t really come and the elect were not actually gathered. It was all just a story to make them feel good. I don’t suppose anyone saw Him in the clouds destroying Jerusalem and the temple or at least if He did not do it He was overseeing the work from the clouds. Odd that He didn’t tell them He was coming to destroy Jerusalem. Instead He made it sound like He was coming to save them. Kind of swerved them with that parable.
But then again my question. Of what comfort does it give someone who is going to go through this kind of persecution and suffering to know what is being told to them about rescue is not actually going to take place. Seems like useless words. Not much comfort or confidence in that kind of deliverance. You did read the James 2 passage?
topcat54,
When, in your timetable, did Jesus destroy the antichrist (the man of sin) at his "coming on the clouds"?
Ref:
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
Yes, but I'm not Daniel. Hey, I've even experienced the prophetic anointing -- which applies a facet of eternal etruth to present circumstances with a vivid word picture, but does not venture to predict the future. (Ironically, the Scofield flavor of dispensationalism is hostile to the charismatic movement.)
(Side note: is the soundness and completeness of your faith now really beyond question?)
Nope. That's why I appreciate your detailed response, and your willingness to stay in the conversation.
Over 50% of Scripture is prophetic in nature. 50% of what God has to say to us is put in terms of prophesy. Hard to miss that point.
Apart from the final resurrection on the Last Day, the Bible is a book of fulfilled prophecies. Studying God's dealings with man in ages past helps us discern patterns in human affairs today. For example, God is still allergic to towers of Babel, still taking down empires that defy him. Do you remember how the Soviet Empire was the Red Beast destined to rule the world? That may have been before your time .... After the wall came down, rather than making the heavens ring with shouts of praise, the fortune tellers/doomsayers immediately began scurrying around looking for other antichrist candidates to cower before.
Sadly, in my experience, it is Calvinism that is a hobby horse for many. Many Calvinist I speak to have little to say about Jesus Christ - or do so as an afterthought. At first opportunity they will turn the topic to Calvinism. For some it seems to be an idol named Theology.
Sadly, I am forced to agree. The first Calvinist I ever encountered was an evidently demonized young woman who entered an informal gathering of young Christians and seekers. Oblivious to the audience, and the eternal destinies in the balance, she sought with vigorous arguments to compel us to worship her doctrine. The spirit driving her strove to counter the Spirit of Jesus, which yearned towards the seekers that night. I think this one Calvinist delayed my embrace of the Reformed message for a decade.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The "this generation" Jesus spoke OF was the "this generation" Jesus spoke TO.
There are many who go too far with prophesy - to the point that it eclipses the glory of Christ. But you seem desirous of dismissing the whole topic altogether. In that, you are discarding something that God has given to His people. You may see no need for it - but you are flourishing in a time of ease. Prophetic literature is, in one sense, primarily for the benefit and aid of fellow Christians who are suffering persecution. It is God's lifeline to then to help them make it through situations that you and I probably know nothing about.
God's record of FULFILLED prophecy encourages us today to trust Him despite what the newspapers say.
This sound like some sort of repackaged, "christianized" humanism. I don't care how much of a lover you may be, you can shape nothing.
May God grant that your adult daughter will take you out for lunch and formally thank you for raising her the way you did. Godly children are hardly "nothing."
To call those who search the Scriptures "whiners and loosers" is to insult the very prophets who wrote the Scriptures...
Again, it depends on why they are "searching." The JWs, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals all "search the scriptures." The Pharisees were busy "searching the scriptures," and blind to the Messiah standing right in front of them. Granted, God's Word nourishes our soul. (Folks who depend on the KJV for spiritual nurture like to have archaic, and eat it, too.) However, we are not here to be entertained. We have callings to pursue for His glory. His Word is the user's manual for the universe. The "bluejacket's manual" that explains our positions and duties to us.
Thanks for a lengthy and thoughtful and irenic post. May the gracious spirit you demonstrated there reap a harvest of godliness in the many decades and generations to come!
Actually they were your words. I merely quoted them.
Do you deny that you believe Calvinists are out of fellowship with God? Or that you have made disparaging remarks about Calvin for the purpose of inciting and flaming?
1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Yeshua and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
Curious. Why did you use Yeshua instead of Jesus (the English translation of the Koine Iesous)?
And what exactly does the rest of this have to do with anything?
AMEN!
I'm not sure if dispensationalists are aware just how much they cripple Jesus Christ and neuter Christianity by not believing "His Kingdom come; His will be done."
Christ came and the New Covenant was established in strength and truth and energy for all men.
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:31-32
Neither Christ nor any disciple ever spoke of the millennium, but Christ clearly spoke of the Great Commission and our duty to make disciples of all the world. To ignore His instructions seems mighty foolish.
The kingdom was transferred from the old nation to the new nation. The old temple has given way to the new temple. The old priesthood replaced by the new priests.
Amen.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." -- 1 Corinthians 12:13
Amen.
Christ the third temple.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. " -- Ephesians 2:18-22"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
“Neither Christ nor any disciple ever spoke of the millennium,”
Dr. E,
John was not a disciple???
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
“Christ the third temple.”
The temple to which you refer is the heavenly temple. It provided the patern for the construction of the earthly temple(s).
God forbid any such catastrophe from occurring. But if it did, I would look upon it as a horrific tragedy, and a shameful abrogation of the free world's responsibility to protect fellow democracies.
I don't accept a future destruction of national Israel as being any sort of Biblical prophecy. Jews have suffered plenty on this earth. It's irresponsible for any Christian to proclaim some future holocaust where 2/3 of the Jewish people will be destroyed as some kind of Biblical mandate.
Think how that emboldens the Satanic powers who seek national Israel's demise. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
National Israel will continue to be converted like the rest of the world -- by the preaching of the Gospel and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Gary North has an excellent piece on how this counterfeit holocaust can negatively effect our understanding and our politics...
(Gary) DeMar calls attention to the terrible silence of fundamentalists who believe this view of the future. They refuse to warn Jews about what is in store for them.
Eugene Merrill, while not discussing Zechariah 13:8 in his commentary on that biblical book, does describe how a future holocaust of the Jews is in view in Zechariah 14:2. Merrill writes:
John Walvoord, for three decades the president of Dallas Theological Seminary, the nation's leading dispensational seminary, wrote the following in his book, Israel in Prophecy (1988):
The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried" (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah's prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah (p. 108).
Israel's present population is around 4,500,000. If two-thirds of the Jews living in Israel at the time of the "Great Tribulation" are to die, this will mean the death of nearly 3,000,000! In addition, there is continued immigration from the former Soviet Union supported by Christian organizations like "On Wings of Eagles." Financial support is raised by Christians to fund Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. "'This is a biblical issue,' says Theodore T. Beckett, a Colorado developer who founded the Christian-sponsored, adopt-a-settlement program. 'The Bible says in the last days the Jews will be restored to the nation of Israel.'" For every three people who enter, two of them will be killed during the "Great Tribulation." Why aren't today's dispensationalists warning Jews about this coming holocaust by encouraging them to leave Israel until the conflagration is over? Instead, we find dispensationalists supporting and encouraging the relocation of Jews to the land of Israel. For what? A future holocaust?
The restoration and dominion cannot come until all the forces of evil that seek to subvert it are put down once and for all. Specifically, the redemption of Israel will be accomplished on the ruins of her own suffering and those of the malevolent powers of this world that, in the last day, will consolidate themselves against her and seek to interdict forever any possibility of her success. The nations of the whole earth will come against Jerusalem, and, having defeated her, will divide up their spoils of war in her very midst.
If this is to be the future of Jews living in Israel, then why aren't dispensationalists warning Jews to flee the city? Israel was warned by Jesus to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:16). The New Testament is filled with warnings about the coming A.D. 70 holocaust with no encouragement to take up residence in Jerusalem. In fact, there was a mass exodus from the city by those who understood the world-wide implications of the gospel message and the approaching destruction of what was the center of Jewish worship (John 4:21-24).
Why the silence? One answer is obvious: if such a warning were believed and acted upon by Jews, this would empty the State of Israel of Jews, which would in turn delay the great Christian R&R for untold generations. Problem: there can be no cosmic escape for Christians, called the Rapture, until 3.5 years prior to the Great Tribulation. In short, when it comes to dealing with the miseries of this life vs. a trip to Heaven without death, there is no question that fundamentalists prefer the latter. This escape will at long last solve the moral dilemma of the phrase, "everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die."
Well, in your literalist world I would see how that could be confusing.
But the fact is that Christ is gathering His elect from the four corners. Specifically, He did that in earnest in the first century so that His elect would be saved.
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. “ (vv. 16-18)
“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.” (v. 22)
But then again my question. Of what comfort does it give someone who is going to go through this kind of persecution and suffering to know what is being told to them about rescue is not actually going to take place. Seems like useless words. Not much comfort or confidence in that kind of deliverance. You did read the James 2 passage?
I’m not sure I follow you. See v. 16-22 mentioned above. See also all the promises in Revelation to the “overcomers”, “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.” (Rev. 21:7)
Is physical death or the persecution of men the greatest concern for the believer in Jesus Christ?
I’m not exactly sure what James 2 has to say about this situation other than you might be attempting to stretch things a bit. You suggestion reminds me of the story about the man caught in a flood who decided to stick it out in his home. As the waters rose some guys in a truck came by and offer the man help. “No thanks. God will take care of me.” The waters continued to rise and men in a boat came by with another offer of help. Same response, “No thanks. God will take care of me.” Later, after the man climbed onto his roof, a rescue helicopter came by and threw him a lifeline. Once again the same response. Finally, after the man had drowned and was ushered into the presence of the Lord, he had the boldness to ask God, “Why didn’t you save me. I placed my faith in you.” To which God relied, “I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter. What more did you want?”
But I think you are missing something. Matt. 24 is about the wrath of God about to be poured out upon apostate Israel. Anything which the believer might have encountered was incidental to that action. It was not directed against believers, but against those who opposed the message of Christ.
It should give believers great comfort to know that Christ is on His throne and has all things well in control and things are being worked out in history just as He said.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
You miss a great deal in life when you concentrate on Revelation at the expense of the Gospel.
Unless I'm missing something there is no refernce to "coming on the clouds" in the passage you quoted.
Would you like to rephrase the question?
Yes, the third temple is spiritual; it is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling God's children on earth -- "...Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord..."
It is not, as dispensationalists say in agreement with Jews, some worldly temple to be rebuilt in Israel. It has already arrived.
Is Christ in your heart at this very moment and does He guide your steps and help you to create moments on this earth that reflect His goodness and grace?
“But the fact is that Christ is gathering His elect from the four corners. Specifically, He did that in earnest in the first century so that His elect would be saved.”
No it was not and is not an ongoing process as far as what Jesus said. The gathering of the elect by His angels was to be ALL fulfilled “in this generation”. Jesus said, “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
“Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done”.
Well, I take that back. Since His coming in the clouds was just a parable, His sending angels and gathering the elect and their redemption being close was just a parable too, not to be taken literally. Of course, why could not the phrase “this generation” be just a symbol, part of the parable, also?
“But I think you are missing something. Matt. 24 is about the wrath of God about to be poured out upon apostate Israel. Anything which the believer might have encountered was incidental to that action. It was not directed against believers, but against those who opposed the message of Christ.”
“It should give believers great comfort to know that Christ is on His throne and has all things well in control and things are being worked out in history just as He said”
That’s an interesting take on this. So when the elect is caught up in the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity and death, that was incidental, kind of like collateral damage, or if, as you say, Jesus was in the clouds directing the destruction, the elect were victims of “friendly fire”. I’m sure that was encouraging news.
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