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To: topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg; Blogger; Lee N. Field

“But the fact is that Christ is gathering His elect from the four corners. Specifically, He did that in earnest in the first century so that His elect would be saved.”

No it was not and is not an ongoing process as far as what Jesus said. The gathering of the elect by His angels was to be ALL fulfilled “in this generation”. Jesus said, “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

“Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done”.

Well, I take that back. Since His coming in the clouds was just a parable, His sending angels and gathering the elect and their redemption being close was just a parable too, not to be taken literally. Of course, why could not the phrase “this generation” be just a symbol, part of the parable, also?

“But I think you are missing something. Matt. 24 is about the wrath of God about to be poured out upon apostate Israel. Anything which the believer might have encountered was incidental to that action. It was not directed against believers, but against those who opposed the message of Christ.”

“It should give believers great comfort to know that Christ is on His throne and has all things well in control and things are being worked out in history just as He said”

That’s an interesting take on this. So when the elect is caught up in the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity and death, that was incidental, kind of like collateral damage, or if, as you say, Jesus was in the clouds directing the destruction, the elect were victims of “friendly fire”. I’m sure that was encouraging news.


260 posted on 04/04/2007 1:17:44 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Blogger; Lee N. Field; TomSmedley
The gathering of the elect by His angels was to be ALL fulfilled “in this generation”.

Perhaps we are not reading the same Bible. Where does it "literally" say that all the elect from all time will be gathered by the time judgment would fall on “this generation”? Could it be you are reading more into the text than is there?

Some other things that are interesting in the text:

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. (Mark 13:27)
One thing is the use of angels. This could very well indicate God’s protection of His people since angels are often employed in His service for that purpose. The “gathering of the elect” by angels could mean they were under divine protection and brought through the tribulation of those days.

Another thing is that it does not speak at all about the result of this gathering. The futurist assumes it means they are being gathered to Christ at His second coming. But the text does not “literally” say that. It’s just so much speculation by the interpreter.

Since His coming in the clouds was just a parable

I don’t know if you are purposely misrepresenting the biblical preterist position, or if you are just slow on the uptake.

No one ever said it was a parable. It can see how it might appear that way to one who imposes a false literal on the text of Scripture, but trust me Jesus was not just telling a story to make a point. Judgment really did fall on those folks. They are really dead and the temple was really destroyed and the kingdom really was taken from Israel and given to the Church as custodian of the new covenant.

Again, thankfully God gave us several versions of Jesus’ words from Olivet. Luke tells us:

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (vv. 22-24)
The subject is unmistakable. AD70 is in view. And in case you doubt the real meaning of Isaiah and the relationship to Olivet, we see repeated these words:
And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; (v. 25)
Judgment has come upon ancient Israel, just as it did upon ancient Babylon. The evidence is overwhelming as to the subject of this prophecy. In the words of some immortal but long forgotten person, “Denial is not just a river in Egypt.”

That’s an interesting take on this. So when the elect is caught up in the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity and death, that was incidental, kind of like collateral damage …

Do you know any that actually were?

I was speaking of persecution in general, which went to explaining how your James 2 passage did not apply in this case. The believers followed Jesus instructions to “flee to the mountains” and were thus saved from the destruction of the wrath of God.

263 posted on 04/04/2007 1:46:08 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Blogger; Lee N. Field; TomSmedley
Jus to get your juices flowing even more, here’s another reason why I do not believe that the reference to the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 is speaking of the second coming. The motif would be all backwards from reality.

Jesus explained the parable of the wheat and tares this way:

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:38-43)
In this account of the second coming, the angels are employed, not to gather the elect, but to gather out the tares from among the elect. It does not make any sense to take the elect out of the world, since we are to inherit the world (Matt. 5:5). It makes far more sense theologically, as it is stated here, to the see unrighteous as the ones being acted upon and removed from Christ’s kingdom finally and forever.

If Matt. 24:31 is the same event then there is a problem somewhere.

264 posted on 04/04/2007 2:27:02 PM PDT by topcat54
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