Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
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Thank you for sharing your insights!
I don’t know what you are talking about. Jesus said that cataclysm would come upon national Israel within one generation of the prophecy. Thats precisely what happened. It’s not speculation, it’s history.
These are the passages where Jesus refers to “this generation” concerning prophecy of the end times.
Matt. 24:13-14, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Mat 24:15, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)”
Mat 24:16-21, “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
Mat 24:22, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”
Mat 24:27, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
Mat 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Mat 24:34-35, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Jesus says that “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Did “this generation” experience the fulfillment of the prophecy in vs. 27 and 29-31?
Mar 13:7-8, “And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.”
Mar 13:12-13, “Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mar 13:14, “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:”
Mar 13:19-20, “For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”
Mar 13:24, “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.”
Mar 13:26-27, “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mar 13:30-31, “Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
Jesus says that “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.” Did “this generation” experience the fulfillment of the prophecy in vs. 24 and 26-27?
Luk 21:20, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
Luk 21:22, “For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
Luk 21:24, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
Luk 21:25-26, “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”
Luk 21:27-28, 31, “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh....So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.”
Luk 21:32, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
Jesus says that “This generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled.” Did “this generation” experience the fulfillment of the prophecy in vs. 24 and 25-26, 27-28, 31?
These are the passages you cite for your 70 A.D. dating. You say, “Thats precisely what happened. It’s not speculation, it’s history”. Well, were all of the prophecies in the passages fulfilled “in this generation”? If they weren’t then “this generation” must mean more than those living in Jerusalem at the time and your dating is just as speculative and escapist as all the pre tribs who have set dates.
Indeed.
But I’ve come to the conclusion that not everyone on the other side is interested in the Biblical truth OR the historical truth. They are only interested in folks agreeing with their construction on “reality” and don’t wish to be confused with the facts.
Thereforew, when Scriptural evidence is offered proving their construction on reality absolutely wrong, they ignore it and don’t reply. Cute, that.
I believe all the prophecies up to Matt 24:34 were fulfilled with that generation.
The fact is that Jesus was using highly symbolic language similar to what we find scattered throughout the OT prophets to make it clear to His hearers that He was speaking of a temporal judgment against national Israel that would come upon "this generation".
Two thousand years later we have folks who claim to believe in a grammatical-historical interpretation of Scripture absolutely, totally ignoring the grammatical-historical context of the prophecies.
E.g., I have yet to find a dispensationalist commentator make reference to Isaiah 13:9,10 in the context of Matthew 24:29. The language is identical. The context of Isaiah is clear, temporal judgment upon ancient Babylon. The implication for Matthew 24 unmistakable, esp. within the setting of the rest of the chapter, and esp. in light of the parallel in Luke 21 which is even more clear to gentile readers than Matthew.
I've also posted a number of times over the years on the subject of the symbolic phrase "coming in/with clouds" and how that does not require a second coming fulfillment.
Then there is the not so insignificant fact that dispensationalists require God to delay His worst judgment against national Israel for at least 2000 years. In spite of the fact the God says He does not punish the children of the disobedient beyond the third or fourth generation (Num. 14:18). They ignore the self-malediction pronounced by the people in Matt. 27:25 and they also make God out to be a liar. They make God out to be an evil, offended father who waits, and waits, and waits to punish a disobedient child until he is caught off guard then then … Wham … a smack out of the blue, and the child does not even remember the offense.
This is not a trivial error on the part of the dispensationalist. The implications to the nature and character of God are horrifying.
The fact is that those of us who are non-futurists wrt the Olivet Discourse have done a very good job of connecting the prophetic dots in the Bible and have come to a very reasonable conclusion on the interpretation of Jesus’ words to His disciples, and the implications for that national of Israel. And it also does honor to God and His character.
Yes, you are answering questions but you are deviating further and further from Scripture as your erroneous views are exposed in the light of Scripture. Witness this statement from you:
The current generation is guilty. All of us. We deserve death. The Jews. The Gentiles. All of us.
That’s what we call rationalization of the text. It’s not an answer. It’s a cop out. It does not deal with the reality of national Israel in the first century and their expressed offense against the Son of God. It does not deal with Jesus’ words in Matt. 21:43 or the cry of the people in Matt. 27:25. It does not deal at all with the “days of vengeance” of God’s wrath from Luke 21. It ignores the obvious parallel between Matt. 24:15,16 and Luke 21:20,21.
In short, it makes excuses to fit a predetermined theology.
This is where you are drifting. That is why you have no consistent answer that fit with all Scripture. And this is about Scripture alone. Even they way to twisted my words in my post 197 in response to your attempt to uninvite my friend TomSmedley from the discussion; even that makes it apparent that you do not have a consistently Reformed theology and worldview. I suspect that is because dispensationalism has stunted your growth. You need to discard the dispensational view if you wish to grow in the knowledge of God.
My conversations in this forum with people who think it's important to predict the future are a lot like my conversations with people who think it's important to carve out a large space in your devotional life for God's Mother, the BVM. (That's "Bless Virgin Mary," for non- or never- Catholics.)
Love it! May I quote you?
Here's an interesting little factoid. Gypsy fortune-tellers, who make their living out of that occultic trade, refuse to have their own fortunes told! They know, from contact with their clients, what kind of folks have that morbid curiosity about the future, and what kind of effect scratching that itch has on their lives. Like in American evangelical Christianity, this obsession engenders passivity, fatalism, and impotence.
I mean, good grief, we have so little conviction in our own convictions that 90% of us send our kids off to be nurtured in the precepts of an alternate faith, secular humanism! Providentially, that trend is reversing. As a generation of home-schooled kids reaches maturity, the fortune tellers and doom sayers will have to screech all the louder to be heard!
“I believe all the prophecies up to Matt 24:34 were fulfilled with that generation.”
Mat 24:29-31,
1. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
2.And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
3. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
4. and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
5. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
6. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
According to your interpretation: the Lord returned around 70 A.D. (Immediately after the tribulation); They all saw Him “coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”; all the tribes of the earth mourned; the Lord sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet; and they gathered his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (This interpretation sounds a whole lot like the pre trib rapture theory, but that’s for another time.) This all happened during the generation that Jesus was speaking to at the time. What was the purpose of His coming at that time with such a show of power and glory if there was no change in the circumstances of the elect after, and in fact, it got worse? He said He shortened the days yet the persecution became more intense after the appearance.
“symbolic phrase “coming in/with clouds” and how that does not require a second coming fulfillment.”
Of course it requires fulfillment. Jesus said “they shall see the Son of man coming” and all three writers report that fact. In fact, one says the nations will mourn because of it. That is real, not symbol. Jesus does not say “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove” He said “they shall see the Son of man coming” look up your redemption draws near. Symbol does not give that relief. By the way, all through the three passages Jesus tells the hearers to interpret the times.
From your interpretation we get four comings of the Lord, His birth; 70 A.D.; Rev. 19; and Rev. 20. We get four resurrections, His resurrection; those resurrected with Him; 70 A.D.; and at the judgment seat at the end of the age. We also get the nations mourning without any historical evidence of this.
Excellent points.
How they are missed by the other perspective is utterly mystifying. Blind bias is my only explanation.
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Their contention:“I believe all the prophecies up to Matt 24:34 were fulfilled with that generation.”
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The stark contrast of Biblical truth:
Mat 24:29-31,
1. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
2.And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
3. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
4. and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
5. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
6. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
According to your interpretation: the Lord returned around 70 A.D. (Immediately after the tribulation); They all saw Him “coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”; all the tribes of the earth mourned; the Lord sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet; and they gathered his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (This interpretation sounds a whole lot like the pre trib rapture theory, but that’s for another time.) This all happened during the generation that Jesus was speaking to at the time. What was the purpose of His coming at that time with such a show of power and glory if there was no change in the circumstances of the elect after, and in fact, it got worse? He said He shortened the days yet the persecution became more intense after the appearance.
“symbolic phrase “coming in/with clouds” and how that does not require a second coming fulfillment.”
Of course it requires fulfillment. Jesus said “they shall see the Son of man coming” and all three writers report that fact. In fact, one says the nations will mourn because of it. That is real, not symbol. Jesus does not say “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove” He said “they shall see the Son of man coming” look up your redemption draws near. Symbol does not give that relief. By the way, all through the three passages Jesus tells the hearers to interpret the times.
Anyway, all the rest of that nasty stuff has to happen first.
Of course it requires fulfillment.
Hello ... is this mike on?
You're really not listening to anything I'm saying.
The meaning of all the prophetic images, including the phrase "coming in/with clouds", are explained elsewhere in the Bible. A proper grammatical-historical interpretive approach realizes that and takes it into account.
Did you read Isaiah 13, 9,10 in context? What is the subject? Have you ever read Daniel 7:13,14? What was Jesus saying in Matt. 26:64 when he told the high priest and the scribes and elders who were assembled in His presence, "hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Perhaps Jesus was not being sufficiently “literal” for your taste.
You, on the other hand, are arguing by insisting that you can arrive at the truth by ignoring the rest of the Bible and merely focusing on what you think the text is saying based upon a dispensationally-derived set of presuppositions.
“But it didn’t literally happen” is not an answer, it’s a mindless mantra from your guru.
I think you mentioned something related to this before, but I wonder what the rest of the world think about the Christian whackjob in the US. Between the liberals like the Episcopal homoerogenous sect on the left, and the right wing "Israel as messiah" types on the right, Christians in the rest of the world must be saying, "So what's up with that?"
We used to send the gospel into the world. Now all we seem to be able to do is market every -ism that comes down the street with a finger stuck up in the air and a slick ad campaign.
Can someone interpret this for me?
Upthread, Lee mentioned guessing the date for when “everything has to be all wrapped up by...”, so I did. Year 6000 on the Hebrew calendar would correspond with the onset of the Millennial Reign.
Just a guess... :)
And so they will. So will we all. For every eye shall see Him and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
And so they did, then the armies of Roman marched into Jerusalem and destroyed the temple, first setting up the standards and then leveling the building so that not one stone was left upon another.
All this was predicted in the NT.
“For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (Luke 19:43,44)
You are insisting rather than interpreting. You are reduced to simple one liners which say nothing. The wind has gone from your sails.
“Did you read Isaiah 13, 9,10 in context? What is the subject? Have you ever read Daniel 7:13,14? What was Jesus saying in Matt. 26:64”
Both the Isaiah and Matthew passages refer to His coming at the end of the age when He will judge the unbelievers. that is yet to come. It was not symbolic. Daniel 7 was a vision of the end of the age. It was a vision and the prophecy is yet to take place.
If this prophecy,(1. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:2.And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:3. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,4. and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.5. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,6. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”) was not going to be fulfilled what is the purpose of telling them this? Why tell them that “this generation” that was going through intense persecution was going to see the Son of man coming in glory, and their redemption was close and the elect was being gathered, if it was not going to occur in real time? James has this to say about that kind of concern, (James 2:15-16) “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?”. His words would be “clouds without water over a parched land”.
What you would have people believe is that after the destruction of Jerusalem and the slaughter of the Jews the elects “comfort” comes from a “virtual” imagining of the apparition of the Lord.
And how would those in the Post mil and Amil camps interpret such a catastrophe?
Just for the sake of argument, suppose this did happen, let's say next year. How would you interpret the event?
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