Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
It has essentially happened already that the puppet masters have ordered the USA to force Israel to give unreasonable and suicidal concessions to those who want to wipe her off the map.
I’m incredulous that you construe the future as being without fulfillment of Biblical prophecy about Israel plainly stated in unequivocal terms.
INDEED.
But the concessions the USA has forced on Israel already in the face of Islamic determinations to wipe it off the map are more than sobering. They are outrageous.
AND, THEY HAPPEN TO BE SMACK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GLOBALIST GOALS AND PLANS. No surprise there.
Scripture is clear that the global government so increasingly on the brink of being fully manifested is seriously hostile to Israel as The Bible predicted long ago.
That sort of info is in the news virtually every so many few days. Somtetimes daily. I have difficulty comprehending how that constant onslaught of yet more news of us forcing Israel to make suicidal concessions in favor of globalist goals is NOT construed as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy for our era.
Some puzzle pieces are mysterious and obscure. Not these puzzle pieces. Satan has been determined to throw sand in God’s eyes every way he can ever since he was kicked out of Heaven. He is particularly interested (as history has shown and the Bible predicts) in doing so via destroying God’s Chosen people as much as he can get away with.
Something so brazenly plain as that in the daily news should be easy for all Born Again believers to see and understand, imho.
Holy Spirit is probably the ONLY TRULY progressive force loose in our land.
I’m confident that a LOT of our theological constructions on reality will prove to have been fractionally accurate at best and some outlandisly outrageously off base.
There will be a LOT of sacred theological cows on the altar by that point.
MUCH AGREE. THX.
Hmmmmm . . . which reminds me . . .
This is the standard baptistic frame of reference, with its focus upon manipulating people to utter a ritual "sinner's prayer" in response to an "altar call." Although many people do encounter God through this rite, it's not Biblical evangelism, and the "imprinting" seriously impairs one's subsequent fruitfulness.
As God's merciful deliverance of His people from a crippling fascination with a distracting sideshow.
I imagine that a parallel event, summarized in the following ditty, would provide incredible opportunities for evangelism among the world's billion muslims:
Will we be ready if God suddenly opens the world of Islam to the gospel?
I’m curious. Looking at your profile, how do you reconcile political pessimism with an Amillenial eschatology? If Jesus is ruling and reigning now in a direct and tangible way in the world, shouldn’t you be an optimist?
Fair question. I dashed off most of that offhand recently, and I need to refine the way I stated things.
I am an optimist. God's triumph will be manifest in the end. Every knee shall bow.
Fallen human beings being what they are, I am pessimistic about human utopias. We all know the path Marxism will go, from historical observation. Gulags and gray concrete apartment blocks. Public schools and general ugliness. Poverty, blood, despair, death and ruin. I suspect Libertopia would have it's own set of problems. Chucking it all for an anarchy (good as it looks in theory and from the numbers (see Joe Sobran, The Reluctant Anarchist)), I suspect it would end up like Darkest Africa, in need of a (sigh!) government to restrain evil. A government that will itself most likely be evil. Many humans are predators who will happily prey upon everyone else around them. And so it goes.
Read Abraham Kuyper on Calvinism and Politics
how do you reconcile political pessimism with an Amillenial eschatology?
I suspect you may be confusing amil with postmil. Postmillenialists see the millenium as a real and distinct future time, during which the gospel has triumphed, the world is Christian, but Christ has not yet returned. The amillenialist has a different view of the millennium, and does not necessarily expect conditions to radically improve before Christ's return.
The amil and the postmil both don't have any necessary expectation that everything has to be all wrapped up by, oh, pick a date, 2015. Human history could well have thousands of years more to go before God concludes it. Plenty of time for setbacks and victories.
(As an aside I would maintain that the world is radically better now than in much of the past, just from simple things. How much has human lifespan increased, just from having soap and water available? How much have electric light and eyeglasses increased effective lifespan?)
The ethical demands of any Christian eschatological system worth considering are the same. What does the Bible tell us we should be doing about Christ's return? "Look up." "Keep watch, for you do not know the day or hour your master will return." And don't believe them when they tell you the Christ is here or there -- He (or his angels) will be coming for you. This has been what's expected of Christians from the first, when the return was at least millenia away.
Do I want Jesus to come soon? Sure do.
“We tend not to go running off with newspaper in hand to check our Bible to see if it fits some prophetic jigsaw puzzle.”
Well that’s interesting. You had no trouble believing outside sources when you came up with your 70 A.D. interpretation of prophetic events, why so reluctant to say this catastrophe was part of God’s plan?
Nice try, but wrong anticipation. My whole point is God is God. If he had decided to KILL Adam and His whole race, He can do it. AND he would be fully within His own rights. He is the potter. He can do what He wishes with the clay.
If God killed the 2/3 of the Jews, He would be within His rights as God. If God killed 2/3 or all of us He would be within His rights. Remember, He has to be just. He does not have to be merciful.
Back to Zechariah 13. The fact of the matter is that the passage in question does speak of the Lord of Hosts acting against the 2/3rds and saving 1/3. Within the confines of Romans 9, while this is not pleasant to us, it is within His rights.
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Incidentally, lest He be seen as just picking on the Jews, 1/2 of humanity will die during that time - and they will be deserving of death. We all are. God does not have to be “fair” by human standards. God does not have to be merciful. He has to be holy, righteous, just. And He will be.
I take the Word for what it says topcat. You seem to wish to dismiss that which either a)doesn’t fit your eschatological framework or b)just seems too difficult for you to fathom.
There is a reason it is called the GREAT TRIBULATION. It is not going to be a sweet and rosey time.
Key phrase above.
"oh, pick a date..."
Sure.
September 30, 2239. (1 Tishri, 6000)
True, but He does not lie. It will not say He won’t do something and then go ahead and do it. He is not arbitrary. He will not bring His wrath to bear on any generation beyond the fourth. Period.
If God were to act as dispensationalists suggest He will, He would not be God.
Back to Zechariah 13. The fact of the matter is that the passage in question does speak of the Lord of Hosts acting against the 2/3rds and saving 1/3.
Of course this fits very well with what Christ did for Israel at His first coming. He held out His salvation for all. The nation abused Him, the son of the landowner, and the kingdom was taken from that nation. The two-thirds perished when Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans in AD70. But the remnant, the one-third, of whom Peter and Paul we part along with all those who heeded the waning to “flee to the mountains”, were saved and God’s salvation rested upon them.
It doesn’t need to get more complicated than that.
There is a reason it is called the GREAT TRIBULATION. It is not going to be a sweet and rosey time.
Yes, it was not a very nice time. Ever read Josephus?
The current generation is guilty. All of us. We deserve death. The Jews. The Gentiles. All of us. Only by God’s mercy are any of us saved. It is not anathema that he chooses to have mercy on some and on others he pours out His wrath. All are guilty.
I have read Josephus. What he describes does not fit the criteria of the Great Tribulation. But again, nice try.
I don't know what you are talking about. Jesus said that cataclysm would come upon national Israel within one generation of the prophecy. Thats precisely what happened. It's not speculation, it's history.
Futurists have a hard time with that concept because of their abysmal track record on predictions. It's the very nature of their position.
why so reluctant to say this catastrophe was part of God’s plan?
You must have me confused with someone else. I have never been shy about stating the AD70 was precisely God's plan. Future events, on the other hand, I'll leave that to folks like Edgar Whisenant and Jeane Dixon.
So much for "literalism".
I think this exchange as about run its course. I saw where you were headed some time ago. As I said you are good at speculation but not very good with the text. Keep it up, there's still hope.
Wait, weren't you the one asking about Josephus a short while ago?
I am not squirming. I am calmly answering your questions. That you do not like my answers is a shame, but I am quite comfortable with them. I have answered Scripture’s call to always be ready to give an answer for the hope found in me. My hope is in my returning Lord. My hope is in that in spite of the evil which will come, He will prevail. Why? Because He is true to His Word. Many godly men and women hold to the views which you jetison. Many godly men and women outside of the last century or so couldn’t even read. I would like to think that perhaps some of these “new doctrines” came about as a result of people actually having a copy of the Word of God to study on their own rather than having what Quix calls the “Magisterical” to tell them what it says. People will believe what they are taught. But when the Holy Spirit illumines the soul, He shows His children the truth and puts pretenders to the shame. Jesus is coming. See you in the air.
Spiritually, though, looking at Europe, the United States, and the Triumph of Islam - things look pretty bleak. But then again, they looked bleak in Jonathan Edward's time and look what happened.
You're making my argument for me.
I should have included the cradle to grave Eurosocialist death cult in my list of Things That Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time. My goodness, if they can't even get up the moxie to reproduce, somthing's wrong.
And how many of our society's problems would go away if we just stopped watching TeeVee?
Amills believe Christ is ruling currently in a symbolic "millenium". But, your explanation of your beliefs suffices to answer the question.
I think I'd put a different nuance on it that saying it's a "symbolic millenium".
Thank you for the civil response, by the way.
Delivered with intent to defuse. We will be judged for every careless word.
Even though we have different eschatological beliefs, we can discuss them reasonably and with a measure of Christian charity. Thanks, Lee.
All these theories (pre-, post-, a- and DP) are Christian, derived in recognizable (though debatable) ways Christian scripture. I see where DPs get their theory, even though I think it's a misinterpretation of scripture.
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