Book's Sequel Cites Explicit Evidence Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 22 /Christian Newswire/ -- The sequel to a book written by a former Los Angeles-based radio and television talk show host, which challenges the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven, is now available to the public. Published by Author House, Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation is the sequel to The End Times Passover, written by Joe Ortiz.

"No Christian wants to imagine he or she will be persecuted, but it will happen" stated Ortiz, who spent over 20 years researching and writing his books. Ortiz stated he provides unequivocal Bible evidence that challenges the belief system that Christians will escape to Heaven while unbelievers will be Left Behind to experience Armageddon. "Unfortunately, a large majority of evangelicals do not believe they will go through any tribulation, believing instead that God will provide them an escape through what they call the Rapture."

Ortiz said he realizes his is a minority point of view and that most Christians believe in the books written by authors who promote the Left Behind doctrine (such as John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, et al); but he's willing to debate those authors who promote a Premillennial, Dispensational doctrine to determine what is myth or what is true fact.

Ortiz said he wrote the books because he is concerned for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven. He said his books not only provide Bible evidence to support his contentions, and clearly explain why they will be persecuted, but feels it's his duty to reach out to fellow Christians and alert them to be prepared for the eventuality of great tribulation.

The author is a former award-winning radio/television talk show host and newspaper columnist. A 23 year veteran broadcaster, Joe Ortiz has the distinction of being the first Mexican American to conduct a general topics talk show on an English-language commercial radio station. He began his broadcasting career at KABC-AM in Los Angeles in 1971. He is semi-retired but still writes for local and national periodicals and hosts three blogs.

Seven - "I don’t understand your argument in Ezekiel 13:20."

Ping - Ezekiel 13 has to do with what happens just before
the Lord's Day. It is specifically about prophets, both male and female. I believe it directly relates to the rapture doctrine.

13:2 ....and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, 'Hear ye the WORD OF THE LORD;
3....Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their OWN SPIRIT and have seen nothing!
6.They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them; and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
17....set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
19.And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?
(Beggars for money, false preachers that preach out of their own hearts, their own ideas and mislead their congregations with showmanship, lies and deceit)
20....Behold I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
(The pillows conceal God's truth by telling them they will fly away, - they'll be raptured)

11Thessalonians 2:2-12 tell us how we will gather back to Him and when. It also tells us that "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,". It tells us that day "shall not come, except there come a falling away first".

Seven - "You need to realize that both sides of this debate have merit; otherwise we would not have a debate. Learn to use our different points of view to see details that you might otherwise miss."

Ping - You're right of course - thank you for pointing that out.

Seven - What happened to Christ during the three days after the cross?"
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: .....I believe that this verse must apply to Christ. Is it not this judgment that Christ took on our behalf.

Ping - He took our sins on our behalf but not our judgment. We are still judged for what we do. Is that not what Heb. 9:26 means? My belief is vs. 27 means there is no reincarnation. We will, physically, die once.

Seven - Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Ping - It is fearful for us as God can destroy a soul. Satan can cause you to loose it but only God can destroy it. But, would it be fearful for Christ?

Seven - And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. - Perhaps this verse describes a certain type of fear.

Ping - You're right, it is a type of fear. When I answered this before I assumed you meant fear to the point of Him wanting to be taken away from this event. My belief is this fear is because He knows that the cup of wrath will be poured out on all that do not accept Him.

Seven - "My understanding is that Christ was a sacrifice. Therefore he took on the penalty that we would have taken. Note that he did not pay the penalty for our physical death or we would not die the physical death."

Ping - Yes, Christ was a sacrifice, He was the Lamb on Passover. I don't believe He took the penalty that we would have but His death made it possible for our sins to be forgiven, upon our repentance.

Seven - "Notice also that when he says "he that believeth in me shall never die," he was not talking of our physical death."

Ping - True, this was about our souls. Seven, where are you trying to lead me? Is this still about rapture and if yes, how are you making the connection?

I don't believe He took the penalty that we would have but His death made it possible for our sins to be forgiven, upon our repentance.

Here is a major difference in our doctrine. It is had to establish how much detail is involved is the interpretation of types in scripture. Which details are alike and which are different. It is up to us to discern and that comes with practice

Off to Genesis. Joseph is a type of Christ. This is established because the events in his life are parallel to the life of Jesus. I believe that the events in Joseph's life that didn't happen in Christ's first coming are still prophecy and will happen when he comes again.

Gen 45:1 Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.

Tell me if you can see a parallel to the rapture in this verse?

Seven - "Gen.45:1 Tell me if you can see a parallel to the rapture in this verse?...And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren."

Ping - I thought about this last night. It is your belief, if I understand you correctly, that this type,
Joseph, would be Jesus making Himself known to those that were raptured, before the 2nd advent. It is an interesting assumption and I see how you could interpret it this way.
The chapter actually makes a very good argument for rapture.

If you are a non-rapture believer, as I am, it could be interpreted another way. (please read the scripture with the following)

45:1 All Egyptians were sent away as he would not accuse his brothers in front of them.
2.The others, non family, heard but could not understand - their eyes and ears were not opened. God put the "spirit of slumber" on some.
3.They were in shock, as they will be when the true Christ returns. Many will have been misled and believe the anti-christ (instead of Christ), who came first, was our true Christ and followed him.
4.He tells the world that He is the true Christ.
7.To save the world and preserve a remnant to tell when the true Christ would come.
9.There will be famine in the land (Amos 8:11 famine is for hearing the Word of God). Come to Me, Jesus, The Word, in end times (know the truth and it will save you)

So, instead of being raptured, I believe we will go through the famine, the tribulation but, as written in Lk.10:19 -

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

This power is His Word that keeps us from believing the lies of Satan in end times.

I enjoy learning about the "types" God gave us thoughout the Bible. One of the most interesting, as it pertains to current times, is that of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel. The similarities between that King of Babylon and the one we just hung are amazing. Signs and wonders.

...........Ping-Pong

I thought about this last night. It is your belief, if I understand you correctly, that this type, Joseph, would be Jesus making Himself known to those that were raptured, before the 2nd advent.

I firmly believe that all of the details will fit perfectly, that is the way God does things. If I could see how they all fit, I should not need to bring it up. Christ has already made himself known to the people who will be raptured. The Egyptians knew who Joseph was, but "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

This is one of the questions that the idea of rapture answers for me, that is, the church seems to be absent in the book of Revelation from chapter three through twenty and Israel comes back into prominence.

1 All Egyptians were sent away as he would not accuse his brothers in front of them.

Though he accused them, they were also reconciled.

He tells the world that He is the true Christ.

Here, he tells only his brothers. If this is prophetic of Christ revealing himself to Israel, what will be the role of the Church when this happens? If there is a rapture, then the Church will be out of the picture. If not, the question remains. In the mean time, Israel remains in blindness, and demonstrates regularly.

Either way, this passage reveals to us, many things about our savior, and it is good news.

Seven

Seven - "the church seems to be absent in the book of Revelation from chapter three through twenty and Israel comes back into prominence."

Ping - Some people use Rev.4:1 as proof of the rapture as the church is not mentioned any more.

"After this I looked, and behold, a door as opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The CHURCH wasn't taken up - JOHN was. Vs.2 states he was "immediately in spirit". He was being shown what happened on earth and then he goes to the future.

Seven - "If this is prophetic of Christ revealing himself to Israel, what will be the role of the Church when this happens? If there is a rapture, then the Church will be out of the picture. If not, the question remains. In the mean time, Israel remains in blindness, and demonstrates regularly."

Ping - The role of what we, as believers in Christ, should be doing is given in Mark 13:9-13, Matthew 24:9-13
and Luke 21:12-18. We will be here, delivered up to Satan. That is our destiny.

Seven, what could those verses mean if there is to be a rapture?

The role of what we, as believers in Christ, should be doing is given in Mark 13:9-13, Matthew 24:9-13 and Luke 21:12-18. We will be here, delivered up to Satan. That is our destiny.

Seven, what could those verses mean if there is to be a rapture?

I am not sure if I understand your question.

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The three passages you have listed don't speak of the rapture. Christ speaking to the Israel. The fact that they are in the synagogues does not describe the churches of today.

I remember reading in one of Ironside's commentaries on this subject. He said that many of these things could not happen until the Jews returned to their land in unbelief. His statement preceded the birth of the nation by about 30 years. They are still without Christ and must remain in that condition until after the rapture or they would be taken with the Church. So far, so good on this one.

What do think will signify the end of the "times of the gentiles?"

Seven

Seven - "I am not sure if I understand your question..... The three passages you have listed don't speak of the rapture. Christ speaking to the Israel."

Ping - That's my point Seven, they don't speak of the rapture. Jesus is telling us what is expected of us in the end of days. If we were going to be raptured He would have told us then. Remember, He said, "I have foretold you all things".

Seven - "The fact that they are in the synagogues does not describe the churches of today."

Ping - When He said synagogues there were no churches, unless it was pagan and I don't know what they called their places of idolatry.

Seven - "They are still without Christ and must remain in that condition until after the rapture or they would be taken with the Church. So far, so good on this one."

Ping - I still don't believe there will be a rapture, or that the church will be taken but I do agree with you about the Jewish nation, as a whole. Some have accepted Jesus but, as shown in Ezekiel 37:19-22, the House of Israel and House of Judah will be brought together again. (Who is Ironside's?)

Seven - "What do think will signify the end of the "times of the gentiles?"

Ping - The gentiles time won't end until Jesus comes at the 2nd advent and "there won't be one stone left standing" in Jerusalem - The dome of the rock will be destroyed and the gentiles time is over.

Ping-Pong.

Seven - "I believe that Christ will reveal himself to the nation of Israel before the end."

Ping - Yes, I too believe that but I don't know how close to the end. We are very close now (remember the parable of the fig tree and the last generation beginning in 1948). I know that when Christ comes, at the 7th trump, "Every knee shall bow", so He will be revealed then to all.

Seven - "What do you think about this verse; Gen 45:11 And there will I nourish thee; for yet there are five years of famine"

Ping - I believe Christ is telling us that we will be cared for during the famine (the tribulation). There are 5 years of famine here, 5 months on the ark and 5 months of tribulation in end times.

Noah's flood was an example to us, as was Moses wandering in the desert, as was the 3 children in the fiery furnace. We will go through tough times but He will be with us and we will not be harmed. The famine of end times is for hearing the Word of God - Amos 8:11. His true Word is not being taught very much now.

The verse of Gen.45:11, that you quoted, is one of those that can be taken either way, to prove rapture or to prove that we will be cared for during the tribulation.

Now, it's my turn to ask about a verse and get your take on it. Luke 12:8-12.

5 months on the ark

Compare Genesis 7:11 with Genesis 8:14

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Now, it's my turn to ask about a verse and get your take on it. Luke 12:8-12.

I don't know which part you want me to comment on so I will speak to this one. I have my questions so I will speculate based on my knowledge and experience. I believe that creation is a metaphor, and that God has designed it to teach spiritual things. It is through nature that we understand spiritual things. I think that there is a natural sin and a spiritual sin and that God intends for us to understand the spiritual sin without actually committing it. I guess I am saying that God intends for us to view sin as he does, to understand the power of sin, so that we will never again choose it, throughout all eternity.

I don't know how much you have looked at the depth of typology. I am fascinated by it. I have some letters I have written on the subject, I can either post them here or mail them to you if you like. That was several computers ago but I'm sure I can find them.

Seven

Seven - 5 months on the ark - Compare Genesis 7:11 with Genesis 8:14

Ping - You're right, I misspoke. Noah's time on the ark was much longer. My reference should have been to how long the rain lasted.

Gen. 7:24. "And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days."

This is the 5 month period I should have referenced, not their actual time on the ark.

Luke 12:10 - This has to do with end times. When the elect are delivered up to the synagogues of Satan, (Lk.21:12-15 and Mk.13:9-11), it is stated that the Holy Spirit will speak though us at that time. To not allow that to happen, or to premeditate about what we would say would be to commit the Unpardonable Sin.

Only the elect can commit that sin. My point in this is if the elect are there they can not have been raptured.

Seven - "It is through nature that we understand spiritual things"

Ping - I don't know if it is the only way but you are right. My first "religious" experience happened at Yellowstone many years ago. That feeling is indiscribable. I could feel God's Spirit with me and it physically hurt when that connection was broken. It may sound silly to others but it's a time I look forward to again. So - a great big YES on nature.

It's my belief, and I think Paul wrote about it, that those who have not had the opportunity to be taught about Christ will be judged on their actions in this life as they can discern through nature what is right and is not.

Seven - "I guess I am saying that God intends for us to view sin as he does, to understand the power of sin, so that we will never again choose it, throughout all eternity."

Ping - A beautiful thought and one we should all strive for.

Seven - I don't know how much you have looked at the depth of typology. I am fascinated by it. I have some letters I have written on the subject.

Ping - I think it is very interesting. To see how God laid all of this out is, as you said, fascinating. Please post them if you're able to find them. Perhaps some others might find them interesting too.

Ping

it is stated that the Holy Spirit will speak though us at that time. To not allow that to happen, or to premeditate about what we would say would be to commit the Unpardonable Sin.

Only the elect can commit that sin. My point in this is if the elect are there they can not have been raptured.

I have a problem here. If the elect can commit the unpardonable sin , how can they still be the elect.

I Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Seven

Seven - I have a problem here. If the elect can commit the unpardonable sin, how can they still be the elect.

Ping - I don't know quite how to answer that. I know that the elect were chosen from the first age. They stood against Satan there and God knows they will again in the end of days. They have been justified and have a destiny.

Mk13:11 - But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate; but whatsover shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.

They must allow the Holy Spirit to speak though them or it will be considered the unpardonable sin of Lk.12:10.

I'll think about this more tonight and hopefully an answer as to if they sin, "how can they be the elect", will come to mind. I do know that no one except Christ is perfect, so all men sin. I just don't know what the 1John scripture means.

As I think about that here is another verse for you:

Mattew 24:13 - "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

This is about end times again. How does rapture fit with this verse?

Seven - "I Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Ping - I thought about it and this is my explanation:

The following verse means the same as 3:9 -
1John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him."

These verses are speaking of an habitual sinner, not one who just "messes up", as we all do. The elect aren't perfect and they sin in this age and must repent but they try their best. So, if they sin now those sins can be forgiven upon repentance but the "unforgiveable sin" they cannot commit.

These verses are speaking of an habitual sinner, not one who just "messes up", as we all do. The elect aren't perfect and they sin in this age and must repent but they try their best. So, if they sin now those sins can be forgiven upon repentance but the "unforgiveable sin" they cannot commit.

How much sin is required to be a habitual sinner? The penalty for one sin is the same as the penalty for all sin. I believe that the elect are perfect. They are born perfect in Christ. The old man continues to sin.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Thus when it says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God," it means just what it says, except that it refers only to the spiritual man.

As I think about that here is another verse for you:

Matthew 24:13 - "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

This is about end times again. How does rapture fit with this verse?

Matthew 24:13 is a tricky verse for me. I think it is talking about the people that survive the tribulation and don't receive the mark of the beast. As I said before, I don't believe that Matthew 24, Mark 13: or Luke 21 says anything about the rapture or the blindness of Israel or the 2000 year Church age. These things were revealed later.

Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Evidently the days are shortened so that some flesh may be saved. The unregenerate man is allowed to live into the thousand years

Seven

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