Brief Reflections on the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, and the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura

Vivificat! - A Personal Catholic Blog of News, Commentary, Opinion, and Reflections ^ | 16 August 2006 | Teófilo

[Teófilo]

Those who have know the Catholic Church as the true Church yet knowingly refuse to persevere in her will not be saved.

Now, you may ask, "But what if they believe in Jesus and yet knowingly refuse to persevere in the Catholic Church?"

Answer: By rejecting the Catholic Church after knowing her as the true Church shows that you don't believe in Jesus, in what He said, in what He did, and in what He willed.

Belief in Jesus and in the Catholic Church as His Church go togetherm hand in hand. If you knowingly, purposefully, and freely reject one, you reject the other.

In Christ,
P.

[Teófilo]

The scripture of the God of the universe is only meaningful when a lowly church says so? I think you had better rethink that. It is meaningful because GOD says so. It is meaningful when the Holy Spirit makes it so in your heart. The church is only a minor player in things.

The Church is not "lowly." The Church is the Body of Christ, the Body of God's Son.

Measure your words against the Scriptures you say you uphold, please.

-Theo

[irishtenor]

You sign, in Christ, but you actually mean, in the Church. I am sorry for you. I believe in Jesus, am counting on him to save me, am washed clean by his blood. You have the church. You have condemned me to hell because I don't believe in your church. You are wrong.

Belive in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Don't bother to respond, I am doomed to hell.

[irishtenor]

Never mind. I am doomed to hell because I will never follow your church. Don't bother to respond.

[Iscool]

Belief in Jesus and in the Catholic Church as His Church go togetherm hand in hand. If you knowingly, purposefully, and freely reject one, you reject the other.

It's impossible to pin you guys down to say what you are counting on to get to heaven...I guess that statement is as close as you're going to get...

[Iscool]

Can you please tell me why Paul would give 2 chapters on speaking in toungues when they would be gone?

I used to teach Baptists baptist theology. Then I actually read what the bible says and stopped listening to the Baptist theology. Perhaps you will aslo.

Since you are the teacher and I'm the student, how about you tell me...

[Binghamton_native]

Good post. Actually if we apply the same rules to counting Catholic denominations that is used in counting Protestant denominations (you know, where there are 28,000 or 30,000, or sometimes 40,000 Protestant denominations depending on which Catholic posts the number) we get twenty-one Protestant denominations and sixteen Roman Catholic denominations.

[Conservative til I die]

Don't bother to respond, I am doomed to hell.

Just wanted to let you know that I was reading this thread today and thought your behavior was pretty embarassing throughout.

[Conservative til I die]

Good post. Actually if we apply the same rules to counting Catholic denominations that is used in counting Protestant denominations (you know, where there are 28,000 or 30,000, or sometimes 40,000 Protestant denominations depending on which Catholic posts the number) we get twenty-one Protestant denominations and sixteen Roman Catholic denominations.

Mind enumerating? Are you referring to the different rites within the Catholic Church as different denominations? If so, that most certainly is not an accurate portrayal. All rites of the Church are unified in doctrine, if not the rubrics, vestments, language, etc.

[irishtenor]

Too bad. When someone tells me that my belief in Jesus is worthless, I have a lot less respect for them and their beliefs.

[Rhadaghast]

I would be glad to. The first thing you need to deal with is; not what tongues were, but have they stopped.

The verse given as statement of fact by the standard theology is 1 Cor 13:8-10.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

All of these items; Tongues, Prophecies, Knowledge were previously described in the preceding chapter, with instructions on their use. Therefore we have one point for their continuation. We have instructions for a church setting to continue the practice of speaking in tongues in specific parameters.

The second point in this progression is have they ceased? The standard protestant theology(SPT) states that they have based on Verses 8-10 above. However there is a condition to the practice having ceased. That condition is, when the perfect comes.

The SPT declares the perfect as the completed cannon of scripture. However, this statement violates SPT accepted practice of hermeneutics; i.e. scripture defines and clarifies scripture. Scripture does not declare what the perfection is. Therefore it is speculation that the perfection mentioned is the completed scriptures. No where in scripture is this clarified?

That makes the argument for ceasation of tongues SPT dogma and not theology.

Then we have the final point that is we are commanded to speak, pray in the Holy Spirit and seek spiritual gifts.

1 Cor 14: 1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Paul just said that prophecy would end, correct? Then why would he give us directions to eagerly desire it?

Simply because the perfect has not come yet.

Finally you have to deal with what tongues are:

If it is a known language, than why would Paul speaking to a congregation; that may have many different people able to speak different language, say he would not be understood except by God? This is a strong argument against tongues only being a known language.

Much more needs to be said on these topics, but the bottom line is: If God asked you to speak in tongues would you?

After attending Moody Bible Institute and getting a degree from William Tyndale College; I realized that the SPT was lacking in the very power of God they espoused.

Latter in my searching, I discovered that even our Catholic brothers and many other denominations were not so proud as to declare to God these dynamic gifts had ceased. They have charismatic congregations in the Catholic, Episcopal, Armenian, and Presbyterian churches.

I hope you can prayerfully consider these issues and read the word with clear eyes. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you his answer and not someone elses answer.

That is what this entire thread is about. Being led by His Spirit into all truth.

[Binghamton_native]

Let's go with these: (1) Catholic Pentecostals (Roman Catholics involved in the organized Catholic Charismatic Renewal); (2) Evangelical Catholics (Roman Catholics who also regard themselves as Evangelicals); (3) moderate Roman Catholics (represented by almost all Roman Catholic scholars); (4) Conservative Roman Catholics (represented by Scott Hahn and most Roman Catholic apologists); (5) Traditionalist Roman Catholics (represented by apologist Gerry Matatics); (6) Sedevacantist Roman Catholics (those who believe the chair of Peter is currently vacant).

[Iscool]

I attended a Pentecostal Church for about 6 mo...And I sometimes played on a guitar during the service...I enjoy a church where the people get excited about the Lord...

Been to plenty of 'dead' Protestant churches...Most of which you need to bring an alarm clock so you know when it's time to go home...And of course at the Catholic church, you need to bring a pair of knee pads and a back support...

The first thing we need to realize is the the Corinthian church was like the F-troop of the church...Not because they were stupid, but because they were new, and because of that, they had trouble getting things together...

OK...So what are tongues in the bible sense???

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now notice, these tongues could be uttered...

Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

So it's crystal clear, initially, tongues were a foreign language...

If it is a known language, than why would Paul speaking to a congregation; that may have many different people able to speak different language, say he would not be understood except by God?

Because God understand all languages...It's in the context...Besides, Paul say Do not speak in tongues because it does not edify the church...

So why were the Corinthians speaking in 'tongues'???

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

A sign for who

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Tongues are a sign...The signs are for the Jews...They require it...

This is one of the Pentecostal 'proof' texts that tongues are valid for use today...

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

You Pentecostals want us to believe that 'can not be uttered' actually means 'can not be understood by the human mind...But the fact is: can not be uttered means can not be 'spoken', and heard by someone else...

But let's take a closer look here...

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

You get that??? It's not the Holy Spirit that speaks in tongues...It's not a spiritual thing...It's an education thing...That's why Paul 'spoke in tongues more than you all'...It's your spirit doing the work...

And for these (and other) reasons, I avoid speaking in any language except English...

But consider this: Many Pentecostals speak in their 'unknown' tongues and they do it unscripturally...They do it without an interpreter...That's against the rules...But when you do this, since you don't know what you are saying, how do you know you aren't cursing at God???

Speaking in tongues is not the ONLY reason I refuse to attend a Pentecostal church...

[Rhadaghast]

I do have problems with some of your exegesis.

I do NOT have problems with the statement that some Pentecostal churches are not scriptural in their practice of speaking.
Your use of the term uttered is too specific. It does not deal with prayer language; also praying in the spirit is not necessarily with out speaking.

The pentacostal proof text you quote is over used in both camps for and against.

Paul does ask you to seek spiritual gifts specifically prophecying. So when you contimplate erring on the side of caution does make sense sometimes in regards to tongues, it does not make sense for prophecying. Especially when Paul encourages it.

I am not telling you to start or stop praying in tongues or otherwise. But please don't take this all the way to 'it stopped therefore you are demon possessed' as some SPT do.

Your practice issues are more valid arguments, but still they are execution problems not theology problems.

I have seen tongues practiced in a very orderly fashion; with and without interpretation. Both within biblical constraints.

Finally: How do you know your aren't cursing God. By the same faith that initiated the speaking. God is continually guiding through His Holy Spirit. Therefore it would not be cursing.

How do you know that God will not train you up into greater Faith which will result in your speaking in tongues?

Every step on this Christian life will require more faith. As He stretches me and I stopped telling Him he can't do this or that; it is a new glory He raises me into.

Perhaps He is currently raising you up to have faith in His perfect peace. Then as you walk solidly in that He will raise you up in His perfect provision for everything that you need. Then for Prayer... etc.

Don't assume that you are all there, or have all the answers. God never ceases to amaze me. As I give up my pride He teaches me things that were drastically different than what I thought I knew. I am so grateful that He loves me where I am but loves me enough not to leave me there.

[Iscool]

I accept Pentecostals as brothers and sisters in Christ...

There are Pentecostal Pastors that will tell you that if you do not speak in tongues, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit...That's not only unbiblical, it preposterous...

[Rhadaghast]

I am still looking into that.

There should be a dichotomy between sealed with the HS and Filled with the HS.

One thing I find consistent is that the evidence of the filling of the HS in Pentacostal circles is too limited to tongues. Acts 4:31 ( I think ) states an evidence is witnessing with boldness.

So I frequentely have to point this out to them.

[old-ager]

> Ah, 16th century Kool Aid.

Jah. It's still fresh and tasty.

[old-ager]

> The existence of thousands of Protestant sects prove my point.

Plenty o' Romanist sects around too.

> It will remain so as long as you can't produce the chapter and verse where we can find a list of the closed biblical canon.

Joe Smith would like this. Can you show any "new" Scripture that adds doctrinal content to the canon, yet does not contradict something important in the canon?

[old-ager]

> You would have each man be a pope; nye, a prophet like Mohammed or Joseph Smith?

Nope - real Reformation Christians have public, written Confessions.

You like the reeking doctrines of Trent?

[Teófilo]

Plenty o' Romanist sects around too.

In the Catholic Church there's debate Among the Protestant sects what you find is dissent. Not merely dissent against the Catholic Church. That's for granted. But dissent against each other.

Thanks to "sola Scriptura" and "free examen" the fatal flaw of Protestantism is structural.

Cheers,

-Theo