IT's NOT JUST ABOUT THE MASS!!!

Young Traditional Catholics.com ^ | 11 APR 06 | The Server X-Angel

[xangel0228]

I by no means am a theological scholar. I am just a late twenties Catholic who came to his senses about the Novus Ordo in mid-2005, but I would be remiss if I didn't offer my comments on some things that are percolating in the Church right now.

This Maundy Thursday may mark the “granting” of an “Universal Indult” for the Tridentine Mass (also known as the Traditional Latin Mass) by Benedict XVI which would allow a “freer and wider” use of the Tridentine Mass.

The collective Traditionalist world is holding it’s breath in anticipation of this granting. My question to my fellow traditionalists is: WHY? When it comes to matters within the church: IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT THE MASS!!

[Calabash]

Sedevacantist nonsense alert!

[xangel0228]

Um..no.. I am not sede... I personally find sedevacantism to be a circular argument..

SV is a theological opinion, and is used by the likes of the diamond bros to cause unrest.

If you read the article.. you will find that I am saying that granting the "universal indult" (which is not needed since the TLM was never abolished or supressed) is only a small step to help fixing the Church...and not the "final solution"

[SaintThomasMorePrayForUs]

Some of the "It's not just the Mass" proclamations are borderline schismatic, though I share the bulk of the sentiment. People such as us have to fight the impulse to think that we have all the answers. What is important is to remain obedient to authentic Tradition and the Magisterium. Anything else is from the devil.

[Daffy]

Many good points. In my opinion the Church was infiltrated by "wolves in sheep's clothing" who enjoyed great success.

[michigancatholic]

From the point of view of the situated traditionalist, I agree with you. But remember that there are many of us attached firmly to the Church who have not sought out the Traditional community because to date:
1) it has been far away,
2) it has been under firm and punitive control,
3) it has been separated in some ways from the Church, esp. the SSPX factions.

If this statement that the Mass was never abrogated is made, then people who love the latin mass but have not sought it out will migrate to it. I will be among them. We will have an effect on the whole Catholic communion.

[Clemenza]

Bring back Arminius!

[Calabash]

Word spreads fast. Arminius is dead. Long live Arminius!

[Calabash]

The proclimation of a need to redo all Sacraments performed since 1969 is a proclimation of schism and heresy.

[dangus]

I don't get it... The church could do away with all the abuses he talks about, and actually be fulfilling Vatican II... and he seems to know that fact.

[Monti Cello]

I thought this was going to be a thread on stable isotopes....

[Salvation]

xangel0228
Since Apr 11, 2006

[xangel0228]

"The proclimation of a need to redo all Sacraments performed since 1969 is a proclimation of schism and heresy."

Actually.. I don't see where you could get that... if the new rites are questionable in validity... wouldn't it better safe than sorry?

Just because someone disagrees with sometihng from V2 doesn't make them a heretic, especially since V2 didn't change the essence of dogma, it change the way it was presented, along with several other things.

Now if I was to say "Jesus wasn't Divine, or Mary didn't stay a virgin her entire life, or Transubstantiation is a 'hocus-pocus' trick" -- that is heresy.

V2 started out harmless, and was turned into a hotbed of liberalism and modernism. It was only supposed to last 3 months, and the liberal cardinals/bishops took over...John XXIII knew that the toothpaste had been let out of the tube.

[steadfastconservative]

Yes, it isn't just about the Mass. If Benedict XVI grants permission for an unrestricted use of the Missal of Pius V, this still won't be enough to satisfy super Catholics, such as yourself. Finally, a little honesty from the Traditionalists: Rome must declare Vatican II to be "null and void." Every priest who has been ordained since 1968 (and this would include my brother) would have to be re-ordained. Presumably every sacrament that he and the others have celebrated since their ordination would also be null and void. Every couple married since 1968 (including my husband and myself) would have to be remarried. I guess our six children are all illegitimate. Do you really know how ridiculous you sound? Grow up.

[xangel0228]

"Every couple married since 1968 (including my husband and myself) would have to be remarried"

If you read the article... it stated an exemption for the marraiges since fortunately...that sacrament wasn't watered down too much. (I also should have included Baptism) And I quote myself:

"All sacraments – with the exception of marriages – would have to be redone to ALL Catholics (under the age of thirty-36, or if you converted after 1970) throughout the world using the old rites."

The only problem was how the "anullment mills" got cranked up and so many marriages were dissolved due to insane reasons (i.e. I just don't love him/her anymore)

If you compare the rites of the sacraments of the Old Rite to the New Rite and honestly STUDY them...you can see where there are some very serious questions in validity.

And actually redoing the sacraments such as Confession/Penance, Holy Eucharist, and probably even Confirmation would not be that big of "chore". Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?

Holy Orders is a whole other kettle of fish.

You term me as a "super Catholic" -- what exactly is that supposed to mean? Do I have a costume...a cape? Can I fly? Do I have a secret identity?

What is it about traditional,pre-Vatican II Catholics that scare the Novus Ordians so much?

You state that you got "honesty from the Traditionalists"..what about a little honesty from the Novus Ordians.. is the "mass" the same no matter where you go? Or do you have to figure out what novelty they are going to do this week?

Do you honestly think that transubstantiation takes place with the New Canon? And if so, how can you justify communion in the hand? If Jesus is present to the smallest particle, then why commit such a sacrilage by scattering His Divine Body on the floor?

Remember...I used to subscribe to the Novus Ordo... I served the altar for 10 years...with a very devout and conservative priest that was ordained under the old rite.

It was after I left that church(as in moving on with my life to another city) and saw the abuses that took place..that may me start to wonder. Then after the santo subitio of JP2 after he died...that was the last straw.

[steadfastconservative]

What is a Novus Ordian? I have always thought of myself as a Catholic but whenever I engage in debate with Traditionalists, I get labelled with some new name, such as "neo-con," "post-conciliarist," and now "Novus Ordian."

A super Catholic is someone who thinks he is more Catholic than the Pope, the Church, other benighted Catholics, such as myself, who fail to see the illegitimacy of the Council.

Mighty big of you to allow that post 1968 marriages might still be valid. Too bad for my brother, though, he apparently isn't really a priest. And my confirmation was invalid and none of my sins have been forgiven since 1970. Great.

I have studied the Missal of Pius V and the Missal of Paul VI. I don't see a problem with the validity of the latter. And, yes, transubstantiation takes place when the priest recites the Canon of the newer Missal. What does communion in the hand have to do with the validity of the words of Consecration?

No, I don't have to figure out what the pastor of my parish is going to do from week to week. He follows the rubrics of the Mass. While too many priests still commit abuses, many do not. Moreover, abuses are just that, abuses. They are deviations from the rubrics, not the result of the rubrics themselves.

[xangel0228]

"A super Catholic is someone who thinks he is more Catholic than the Pope, the Church, other benighted Catholics, such as myself, who fail to see the illegitimacy of the Council."

I am not saying I am more catholic than anyone... I am legitimately trying to open some peoples eyes to some very grave issues within the church.

I never said the council was illegitmate...just that the outcome that stemmed from it was the problem. The modernists took it and ran with it...making the thigns that were optional the most common.

"What does communion in the hand have to do with the validity of the words of Consecration?"

As I said in a previous post...if you think/believe that transubstantiation takes place under the new Canon, and then take the transubstanitated host IN YOUR HAND, which has been proven to transfer particles due to oils in the skin, static electricity, or whatever...then you are abusing the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord, because I am pretty sure you do not receive ablution when you return to the pew.

Why do you think in the rubrics of the TLM that the thumb and forefinger of the priest do not come apart after saying "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" (FOR THIS IS MY BODY)

But - even dismissing that for a second - let me ask you this: Are your hands or the hands of a SME "consecrated and anointed" to touch the Sacred Host?

Think about it....

[Logic n' Reason]

Mass of what?

Uranium

Grey matter?

Raw sewage?

Mass of what?

[xangel0228]

Almost forgot:
"While too many priests still commit abuses, many do not. Moreover, abuses are just that, abuses. They are deviations from the rubrics, not the result of the rubrics themselves."

And the main reasons that these abuses happen is because of the ambiguous language of the council documents. It left too much room "interpretation"

The TLM was codified in perpetuity act the council of Trent in 1570 via Quo Primum. Yes...tweaks happened along the way, but NOTHING to the extreme of what has happened to the Novus Ordo Missae.

[steadfastconservative]

Well, which is it? Was the outcome of Vatican II bad or was the Council itself illegitimate? Here is what you said on your blog:

"If the Vatican TRULY wanted to grab my attention, and to have me . . . think that they are serious about correcting problems within the Church, the only course of action to be taken would be to declare the Second Vatican Council NULL AND VOID! [your emphasis]"

Doesn't your reply to me contradict what you yourself wrote?