[Catholic] Tradition catching on with Baptists [Ecumenical Ash Wed. Service]

Birmingham News ^ | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 | Greg Garrison

[Full Court]

Tradition catching on with Baptists Protestants begin to take part in Ash Wednesday for its theological lessons Wednesday, March 01, 2006 GREG GARRISON News staff writer It used to be that Baptists had nothing to do with Ash Wednesday, a liturgical holiday they associated with Catholics. No more. "It's a good way of putting the congregation in the right mind-set to prepare for Easter," said the Rev. Christopher Hamlin, pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Smithfield. An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle. "For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us." Other Baptist churches observe the tradition on their own. Fellowship of the Valley, for example, will have a service at 7 tonight at the Lake Cyrus Clubhouse in Hoover. "It's an appreciation for the symbols of our faith, an opportunity to see, feel and touch those symbols," said the fellowship's pastor, the Rev. Michial Lewis. Lewis said the Reformation of the 1500s, when Martin Luther led a reaction against abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, resulted in rejection of traditions such as Lent by many Protestants. "We do emphasize that our relationship with Christ is through faith alone, and the reformers wanted to avoid the appearance that we gain acceptance with God through rituals or symbols," Lewis said. "Now, people can understand the difference. These symbols come alongside as holy reminders." Robert Hodgson, dean of the Nida Institute for Biblical Scholarship at the American Bible Society in New York City, said many evangelicals are beginning to see the biblical roots of Lent. "Jesus goes into the wilderness for 40 days and disciplines himself with fasting and prayer." The 40 days of Lent are preparation for Easter, when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Easter is April 16 this year for more than a billion Western Christians and April 23 for Eastern Orthodox. Baptists are taking an increased interest in the liturgical season for its theological lessons, Shelton said. "It's important for us to take the opportunity to confess our sin." During many Christian observances of Ash Wednesday, the minister rubs ashes on the foreheads of congregants and says, "You are dust and to dust you shall return," quoting a verse from Genesis. The wearing of ashes is prominent in the New Testament with John the Baptist, who called for repentance and wore sackcloth and ashes. "It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said. "We too will return to ashes," she said. "There's life beyond that, and hope beyond what we experience in this life." E-mail: ggarrison@bhamnews.com © 2006 The Birmingham News © 2006 al.com All Rights Reserved.

[Blogger]

I know at least the Lutherans interpret it differently than the Catholics. Look up Transubstantiation verse Consubstantiation.

As far as whether Baptists believe in what is stated in the Apostles Creed, I said that Conservative Baptists wouldn't differ with those doctrines. But we don't force people believe like we do or else- particularly on secondary issues. I also didn't say that it is the "Same" as Baptist Belief. I said more like. You seem to have problems with adjectives and adverbs.

Also, Scripture is not always crystal clear. That is on purpose. We are to study the Scriptures. The Word of God is right. Sometimes we do get it wrong. But, we study the Scripture in accordance with God's Word. Also, Scripture stands regardless if we get it right or not- and the Holy Spirit is a "He" not an "It".

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "I don't believe I will truly understand the TRINITY (three in one) until I am in heaven, though."

Same with me. And reading what others have written about the Trinity gives me a kind of vertigo. In fact, I almost feel like I can't talk about the Trinity unless I'm on my knees.

Thanks for the prayers.

[Zionist Conspirator]

So do these Baptists qualify in your eyes as respectable fellow chr*stians or will they remain ignorant clod-kickers named "Cletus" until they embrace evolution and higher criticism?

[Zionist Conspirator]

"For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us."

Never mind. I just got my question answered.

So since Catholics prefer non-Fundamentalist Baptists who ordain women, is the Catholic Church going to practice what it preaches?

[Titanites]

Calvinism verses Arminianism is NOT an essential. It is a secondary. Salvation by Grace through faith alone is a primary.

You need to ask a Calvinist if predistination is essential to salvation.

But, your point regarding my point on mortal sin backs up my previous point that just because somebelieve it, teaches it, etc., it is not official until it is official.

You missed my point. The Catholic Church has a doctrine on contraception. Whether someone believes contraception is a mortal sin, or not, has no effect on the Church's doctrine. And the Church won't be changing the doctrine on contraception so that it contradicts the current doctrine.

[Titanites]

I know at least the Lutherans interpret it differently than the Catholics. Look up Transubstantiation verse Consubstantiation.

No, the Lutherans interpret the scripture the same as the Catholics, i.e. the Eucharist contains the physical presence of Christ. Transubstantiation vs consubstanitation is about the "how" of that physical presence, and neither contradicts that there is a physical presence.

[Titanites]

Also, Scripture is not always crystal clear. That is on purpose.

For what purpose?

and the Holy Spirit is a "He" not an "It".

Yes, and your point?

[Titanites]

I also didn't say that it is the "Same" as Baptist Belief. I said more like. You seem to have problems with adjectives and adverbs.

Not really. Same can mean similar in kind, depending on your interpretation. See the second definition at dictionary.com

[Mrs. Don-o]

"So since Catholics prefer non-Fundamentalist Baptists who ordain women..."

I'm a bit puzzled. Could you please explain what you mean here? Do you mean "all Catholics" or do you mean "some Catholics" (and if so, which ones)? And "prefer non-Fundamentalist Baptists" -- prefer to what? to Fundamentalist Baptists who do not ordain anybody?

Apparently I missed something here.

Thanks in advance to taking the time to clarify.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You know what I meant. Catholicism is an urban, liberal religion that appeals to urban, liberal Baptists, not traditional ones.

If you're going to smear ashes on the foreheads of female Baptist ministers, you have no right to deny ordination to your own women.

[Titanites]

I just noticed that the seond half of my post 188 is missing. Sorry about that. The whole post should have read:

I also didn't say that it is the "Same" as Baptist Belief. I said more like. You seem to have problems with adjectives and adverbs.

Not really. Same can mean similar in kind, depending on your interpretation. See the second definition at dictionary.com

In any case, just to clarify, are their any statements in the Apostles Creed that are not part of present-day Baptist belief?

[Flavius Josephus]

I boycott movies. Almost all of them.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote, "You know what I meant. Catholicism is an urban, liberal religion that appeals to urban, liberal Baptists, not traditional ones. "

I beg your pardon: I certainly didn't know what you meant. I didn't know whether you meant the official Catholic theological ecumenists prefer liberal Baptists to traditional ones, or "most Catholics" (in the USA? in the world?) like liberal rather than traditional Baptists.

Nor was it clear for what reason Catholics "like" Baptists. Who proposed teaming up with American Catholics for the social-political purpose of defending the family and the sanctity of life? I'm talking about ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together.) Was that the liberal Baptists?

I would imagine that there's a simpler explanation why a group of liberal (rather than fundamentalist) Baptists would show up at a Catholic church for a ceremony of ashes. It's because the fundamentalists wouldn't be likely to attend a Catholic service for ANY reason. (Well, maybe a funeral... And of course I did have Baptists at my wedding, when married a Baptist! Not exactly liberal ones, though, and not exactly urban unless Kingsport, TN is your idea of the wicked metropolis.)

You wrote: "If you're going to smear ashes on the foreheads of female Baptist ministers, you have no right to deny ordination to your own women."

Oh, no, ZC, that's not true at all. Why would Catholics object to Baptists having female ministers? Nobody --- least of all the Baptists --- would make the claim that they have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders!! Female ministers, rabbis, imams --- makes no difference to me, as long as they don't make the false claim that they are, well, priestesses. Woman priests.

Deny ordination? My dear ZC, the Pope says there is nobody in the Catholic Church who is AUTHORIZED to ordain women. Women simply cannot be ordained. Not just must not, but can not, as in "it's an intrinsic impossibility." It's as silly to say that Catholics "deny" ordination to women, as to say we "deny" ordination to apes and archangels.

In Catholic theology, a Sacrament has a particular form and a particular matter. The "matter" of priestly ordination has gender significance --- a man --- just as the "matter" of Holy Matrimony has gender significance --- a man and a woman. Gender, we would insist, is not insignificant and not interchangeable.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain.

[Flavius Josephus]

Your Own Personal Interpretation Of (Scripture)

[Zionist Conspirator]

I was Catholic for six years, ma'am. I do know what sacraments are supposed to be.

I still say it's hypocritical for a Catholic priest to welcome liberal, female-ordaining Baptists to their services while claiming to be a conservative church.

Catholics tend to encourage the more liberal Protestant elements just as Jews encourage the more liberal chr*stian elements. And both are hypocritical and wrong to do so.

[Titanites]

Plus the fact that just because ashes are "smeared" on men, women, children and any validly baptized non-Catholics doesn't commit us to an obligation of ordination.

[Blogger]

I would like to think that rather often I am helped by the Holy Spirit in that interpretation; but yes, we are Sola Scriptura. Am I 100% fallible. No, don't claim to be. Only Jesus Christ was. Oh, and the Pope if you adhere to Catholic theology in matters of morals and doctrine.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Plus the fact that just because ashes are "smeared" on men, women, children and any validly baptized non-Catholics doesn't commit us to an obligation of ordination.

My point was that this Catholic church basically gave encouragement to the more liberal elements of the local Baptist community. How would you feel if Baptists celebrated and encouraged liberal Catholics?

And btw, I do not subscribe to sola scriptura. The problem is that too many Catholics think they have to prove they aren't sola scriptura heretics by subjecting the Bible to scientific higher criticism and insisting that the "old testament" isn't "literal history." I don't see too many Catholics saying this about the "new testament."

Let me know if you ever get to the point where you can tell the difference between sola scriptura and Biblical literalism. They're two different things, despite what you've been taught.

[Titanites]

My point was that this Catholic church basically gave encouragement to the more liberal elements of the local Baptist community.

You hid it well.

How would you feel if Baptists celebrated and encouraged liberal Catholics?

They don't? Baptist services are closed to Catholics, liberal or not?

Let me know if you ever get to the point where you can tell the difference between sola scriptura and Biblical literalism. They're two different things, despite what you've been taught.

It seems you don't know what I've been taught.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You hid it well.

You've got to be kidding.

It seems you don't know what I've been taught.

Yeah, I bet you defend Biblical inerrancy all the time.