Posted on 03/01/2006 10:35:38 AM PST by Full Court
Ah! There's the problem! We welcome ALL sinners to our services! It's quite true! Liberal lady ministers, struggling homosexuals, self-righteous opinionated Tennessee female pharisees, zionist conspirators. publicans, centurions, you name it --- especially when it's a service of repentance...
Repent and believe the good news!
I never read in any creed or catechism that the Catholic Church is supposed to be a conservative church. (Depends on exactly what you're trying to conserve.) The Catholic Church is much wilder and much more countercultural than conservative or liberal.
It's Catholic. Imagine that.
Yes. Very good.
Yeah, I bet you defend Biblical inerrancy all the time.
You'd bet correctly. The Bible is inerrant.
"My point was that this Catholic church basically gave encouragement to the more liberal elements of the local Baptist community. How would you feel if Baptists celebrated and encouraged liberal Catholics?"
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Great Point!
"They don't? Baptist services are closed to Catholics, liberal or not?"
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I haven't heard this one before. How did you come to this idea?
The question marks mean I'm asking.
In the apostle's creed, I would say that most conservative Baptists would have no problems with the doctrinal statements of the Creed, though the churches themselves do not have a Creed that they point to as the "Baptist Creed". Some Baptist churches are more liberal, some are more conservative. But the Apostles Creed defines core Christian beliefs. When it gets to the catholic church part we would understand that to mean one universal church,not one Roman Catholic church. But aside from that part, I don't see anything that I as someone who has graduated from a Baptist seminary would disagree with, nor my fellow Baptists. However, I could find plenty I would probably disagree with with certain American Baptists or other liberal Baptists even within my own denomination; but, I suspect that you would find the same thing in any denomination.
Revelation 12:1 ¶And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Mary was never a great wonder."
You will have to provide me with some references to support the tradition that a Biblical passage about a woman who carried the Messiah, pained to be delivered (gave birth in a manger), evaded his murder, delivered the child unto the Throne (had him consecrated in the House of the Lord), fled persecution into the wilderness (fled to Egypt), whose children profess the testimony of Jesus Christ can not possibly be about the Messiah's mother.
You can't allow yourself to see that Mary's relationship to Eve, being the chosen vessel of the end of the fall of man as Eve was the inception of the fall is indeed a great wonder? Really? Eve:"my will" Mary:"Your will" You don't see it?
How can that not be wonderful to you?
As to the rest.
Please read Exodus 25-40, Leviticus 6:15-17 for just a small sampling of how incense figures in the worship of the Lord in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
But more to the point: will you walk a mile in my shoes? Please read the 5th chapter of Revelations. Then please seek out and attend a Tridentine Mass and come back and tell me whether you still think the incense, pomp, forms, order, and music in the Catholic Mass is from the Pagans or lifted straight from Scripture.
With an open heart, you could really see this at any Mass but it is really emphasized in the original on top of it being an early example of worship in the Church. The Tridentine Mass is an ancient Mass dating from the 6th century. That's as far back as I can take you with a living tradition. I would, though, like to see your documentation backing up your assumptions on Religious practices prior to that date & prior to Constantine's conversion.
The first part of my request to you (Reading Scripture To See If These Things Were So) is certainly easy enough that I would have hoped you would have done it prior to making your comment vis a vis pagan influences in my Church rather than taking someone else's rather poorly researched word for it. "It's right there in the Bible" would seem like it should carry some weight with those who declaim Catholicism, but I have observed that not to be the case here with some frequency, ultimately with "that can't possibly mean what it plainly says" following a close second.
If anything, the Catholic Mass adheres to the Jewish rituals of old. The pomp, the seriousness, the reverence and the Glory are all prefigured by both the Old Covenant and John's vision in Revelation. Can you give me any information on how it came to pass that the Baptists discarded the Holy Rituals of ages past along with so much of Scripture itself (outside of a few prooftexts) along the way? It's been a long time, but do I remember correctly that you will never kneel before him in corporate worship? However did this tradition come to pass?
Shoot. For just a minute there I thought you were going to say "Scripture is not always crystal clear. That is on purpose so that we may know for certain we are to also rely on the teaching Magisterium of the Universal Apostolic Church for clarification and continuity down through the ages."
My bad.
>>John the Baptist, who [...] wore sackcloth and ashes.
>He did?
No doubt when the camelhair garment was at the dry cleaners.
Nah. No need for teaching Magisterium when we have the ONE intercessor between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ; and the Holy Spirit who would guide us in all things.
I can't worship Mary, it's against my religion.
Amen.
You're kind of a one-trick pony, aren't you? :D
v: Please read Exodus 25-40, Leviticus 6:15-17 for just a small sampling of how incense figures in the worship of the Lord in the Judeo-Christian tradition. But more to the point: will you walk a mile in my shoes? Please read the 5th chapter of Revelations Then please seek out and attend a Tridentine Mass and come back and tell me whether you still think the incense, pomp, forms, order, and music in the Catholic Mass is from the Pagans or lifted straight from Scripture.... The first part of my request to you (Reading Scripture To See If These Things Were So) is certainly easy enough that I would have hoped you would have done it prior to making your comment vis a vis pagan influences in my Church rather than taking someone else's rather poorly researched word for it.
WMFIGHTS: "The 6th century follows the era when the church became a part of the State under Constantine. The living tradition you refer to is another way of saying not SCRIPTURAL.
"No thank you. I will take my example from the Bereans who reviewed SCRIPTURE to determine if any doctrine was in conflict with it."
Irony meter...off...the...charts.
BTW, Baptists believe the Apostles had Supernatural (Godlike) Powers? That's surprising.
Thank you for your time.
They were given "sign gifts" when the Gospel was still being preached to Israel, because the Jews had been taught by the prophets to looks for signs to signify that the Messiah was the Messiah.
Also, in Israel, signs justified a prophetic ministry.
John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom..
Once Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Israel rejected the Gospel, the sign gifts ceased.
If you will notice, after the books of Acts, it is a whole new world as far as supernatural acts by the apostles go.
And that is because the Greeks (or gentiles) were not seekings signs to prove anything as the Jews were.
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
Miraculous works continued to be performed to this very day by living Saints, not for signs but for good. However, that is not what was being discussed.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Not a sign at all. An ETERNAL authority.
That has absolutely nothing at all to do with sign gifts.
Baptist never co-opted the pagan rituals that Rome did.
"At Zurich, after many disputations between Zuinglius and the Ana-Baptists, the Senate made an Act, that if any presume to re-baptize those who were baptized before (i.e. as infants) they should be drowned. At Vienna many Ana-Baptists were tied together in chains that one drew the other after him into the river, wherein they were all suffocated (drowned)." (Vida Supra, p. 61)
"In the year of our Lord 1539 two Ana-Baptists were burned beyond Southwark, and a little before them 5 Dutch Ana-Baptists were burned in Smithfield," (Fuller, Church History.)
"In 1160 a company of Paulicians (Baptists) entered Oxford. Henry II ordered them to be branded on the forehead with hot irons, publicly whipped them through the streets of the city, to have their garments cut short at the girdles, and be turned into the open country. The villages were not to afford them any shelter or food and they perished a lingering death from cold and hunger." (Moore, Earlier and Later Nonconformity in Oxford, p. 12.)
The old Chronicler Stowe, A.D. 1533, relates:
"The 25th of May--in St. Paul's Church, London--examined 19 men and 6 women. Fourteen of them were condemned; a man and a woman were burned at Smithfield, the other twelve of them were sent to towns there to be burned."
Froude, the English historian, says of these Ana-Baptist martyrs--
"The details are all gone, their names are gone. Scarcely the facts seem worth mentioning. For them no Europe was agitated, no court was ordered in mourning, no papal hearts trembled with indignation. At their death the world looked on complacent, indifferent or exulting. Yet here, out of 25 poor men and women were found 14, who by no terror of stake or torture could be tempted to say they believed what they did not believe. History has for them no word of praise, yet they, too, were not giving their blood in vain. Their lives might have been as useless as the lives of most of us. In their death they assisted to pay the purchase of English freedom."
Likewise, in writings of their enemies as well as friends, Dr. Carroll found, their history and that their trail through the ages was indeed bloody:
Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:
"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)
The "twelve hundred years" were the years preceding the Reformation in which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution thinkable.
Sir Isaac Newton:
"The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome."
Mosheim (Lutheran):
"Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."
Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian):
"It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time."
Tertullian was born just fifty years after the death of the Apostle John.
III
Baptists do not believe in Apostolic Succession. The Apostolic office ceased with the death of the Apostles. It is to His churches that He promised a continual existence from the time He organized the first one during His earthly ministry until He comes again. He promised--
"I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)
Then, when He gave the great Commission, which tells what His churches are to do, He promised--
"I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the age." (Matt. 28:20)
This Commission--this work--was not given to the Apostles as individuals, but to them and the others present in their church capacity. The Apostles and the others who heard Him give this Commission were soon dead--BUT, His Church has lived on through the ages, making disciples (getting folks saved), baptizing them, and teaching the truth--the doctrines--He committed to the Jerusalem Church. These faithful churches have been blessed with His presence as they have traveled the TRAIL OF BLOOD.
This history shows how the Lord's promise to His churches has been fulfilled. Dr. Carroll shows that churches have been found in every age which have taught the doctrines He committed unto them. Dr. Carroll calls these doctrines the "marks" of New Testament Churches. (From. Dr. Carroll.)
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