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To: wmfights
Pontif comes from the Latin for Bridge maker as in modern Italian Ponte means bridge. As in a bridge (connection) between The Heavenly and the Earthly Church REF: Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

As to the rest.

Please read Exodus 25-40, Leviticus 6:15-17 for just a small sampling of how incense figures in the worship of the Lord in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

But more to the point: will you walk a mile in my shoes? Please read the 5th chapter of Revelations. Then please seek out and attend a Tridentine Mass and come back and tell me whether you still think the incense, pomp, forms, order, and music in the Catholic Mass is from the Pagans or lifted straight from Scripture.

With an open heart, you could really see this at any Mass but it is really emphasized in the original on top of it being an early example of worship in the Church. The Tridentine Mass is an ancient Mass dating from the 6th century. That's as far back as I can take you with a living tradition. I would, though, like to see your documentation backing up your assumptions on Religious practices prior to that date & prior to Constantine's conversion.

The first part of my request to you (Reading Scripture To See If These Things Were So) is certainly easy enough that I would have hoped you would have done it prior to making your comment vis a vis pagan influences in my Church rather than taking someone else's rather poorly researched word for it. "It's right there in the Bible" would seem like it should carry some weight with those who declaim Catholicism, but I have observed that not to be the case here with some frequency, ultimately with "that can't possibly mean what it plainly says" following a close second.

If anything, the Catholic Mass adheres to the Jewish rituals of old. The pomp, the seriousness, the reverence and the Glory are all prefigured by both the Old Covenant and John's vision in Revelation. Can you give me any information on how it came to pass that the Baptists discarded the Holy Rituals of ages past along with so much of Scripture itself (outside of a few prooftexts) along the way? It's been a long time, but do I remember correctly that you will never kneel before him in corporate worship? However did this tradition come to pass?

208 posted on 03/03/2006 5:24:19 PM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
"Pontif comes from the Latin for Bridge maker as in modern Italian Ponte means bridge. As in a bridge (connection) between The Heavenly and the Earthly Church REF: Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Is this how you try and claim that the supernatural powers JESUS breathed into his Apostles were passed on? I don't believe it for a second. The Apostles were the men that walked with JESUS when he was on the earth. Any successive leaders in a church may have been truly devout, but they are Disciples.

BTW, another way to read that passage is that the Apostles knowing who JESUS truly was if they preached the gospel then those that believed in JESUS would receive the keys to the kingdom ie., salvation and those that did not would be bound for damnation. One thing is crystal clear JESUS did not indicate any supernatural powers would be passed on, maybe because he knew large institutions become corrupted and self promoting over time.
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" The Tridentine Mass is an ancient Mass dating from the 6th century. That's as far back as I can take you with a living tradition. "

The 6th century follows the era when the church became a part of the State under Constantine. The living tradition you refer to is another way of saying not SCRIPTURAL, or in other words, "we can do what we want such as creating a magisterium to dictate what people can think and believe".

No thank you. I will take my example from the Bereans who reviewed SCRIPTURE to determine if any doctrine was in conflict with it.
213 posted on 03/03/2006 8:07:17 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or get out of the Way!)
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To: ventana; wmfights
Can you give me any information on how it came to pass that the Baptists discarded the Holy Rituals of ages past along with so much of Scripture itself (outside of a few prooftexts) along the way?

Baptist never co-opted the pagan rituals that Rome did.

"At Zurich, after many disputations between Zuinglius and the Ana-Baptists, the Senate made an Act, that if any presume to re-baptize those who were baptized before (i.e. as infants) they should be drowned. At Vienna many Ana-Baptists were tied together in chains that one drew the other after him into the river, wherein they were all suffocated (drowned)." (Vida Supra, p. 61)

"In the year of our Lord 1539 two Ana-Baptists were burned beyond Southwark, and a little before them 5 Dutch Ana-Baptists were burned in Smithfield," (Fuller, Church History.)

"In 1160 a company of Paulicians (Baptists) entered Oxford. Henry II ordered them to be branded on the forehead with hot irons, publicly whipped them through the streets of the city, to have their garments cut short at the girdles, and be turned into the open country. The villages were not to afford them any shelter or food and they perished a lingering death from cold and hunger." (Moore, Earlier and Later Nonconformity in Oxford, p. 12.)

The old Chronicler Stowe, A.D. 1533, relates:

"The 25th of May--in St. Paul's Church, London--examined 19 men and 6 women. Fourteen of them were condemned; a man and a woman were burned at Smithfield, the other twelve of them were sent to towns there to be burned."

Froude, the English historian, says of these Ana-Baptist martyrs--

"The details are all gone, their names are gone. Scarcely the facts seem worth mentioning. For them no Europe was agitated, no court was ordered in mourning, no papal hearts trembled with indignation. At their death the world looked on complacent, indifferent or exulting. Yet here, out of 25 poor men and women were found 14, who by no terror of stake or torture could be tempted to say they believed what they did not believe. History has for them no word of praise, yet they, too, were not giving their blood in vain. Their lives might have been as useless as the lives of most of us. In their death they assisted to pay the purchase of English freedom."

Likewise, in writings of their enemies as well as friends, Dr. Carroll found, their history and that their trail through the ages was indeed bloody:

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

The "twelve hundred years" were the years preceding the Reformation in which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution thinkable.

Sir Isaac Newton:

"The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome."

Mosheim (Lutheran):

"Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian):

"It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time."

Tertullian was born just fifty years after the death of the Apostle John.

III

Baptists do not believe in Apostolic Succession. The Apostolic office ceased with the death of the Apostles. It is to His churches that He promised a continual existence from the time He organized the first one during His earthly ministry until He comes again. He promised--

"I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

Then, when He gave the great Commission, which tells what His churches are to do, He promised--

"I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the age." (Matt. 28:20)

This Commission--this work--was not given to the Apostles as individuals, but to them and the others present in their church capacity. The Apostles and the others who heard Him give this Commission were soon dead--BUT, His Church has lived on through the ages, making disciples (getting folks saved), baptizing them, and teaching the truth--the doctrines--He committed to the Jerusalem Church. These faithful churches have been blessed with His presence as they have traveled the TRAIL OF BLOOD.

This history shows how the Lord's promise to His churches has been fulfilled. Dr. Carroll shows that churches have been found in every age which have taught the doctrines He committed unto them. Dr. Carroll calls these doctrines the "marks" of New Testament Churches. (From. Dr. Carroll.)

220 posted on 03/04/2006 11:20:48 AM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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