[Catholic] Tradition catching on with Baptists [Ecumenical Ash Wed. Service]

Birmingham News ^ | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 | Greg Garrison

[Full Court]

Tradition catching on with Baptists Protestants begin to take part in Ash Wednesday for its theological lessons Wednesday, March 01, 2006 GREG GARRISON News staff writer It used to be that Baptists had nothing to do with Ash Wednesday, a liturgical holiday they associated with Catholics. No more. "It's a good way of putting the congregation in the right mind-set to prepare for Easter," said the Rev. Christopher Hamlin, pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Smithfield. An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle. "For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us." Other Baptist churches observe the tradition on their own. Fellowship of the Valley, for example, will have a service at 7 tonight at the Lake Cyrus Clubhouse in Hoover. "It's an appreciation for the symbols of our faith, an opportunity to see, feel and touch those symbols," said the fellowship's pastor, the Rev. Michial Lewis. Lewis said the Reformation of the 1500s, when Martin Luther led a reaction against abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, resulted in rejection of traditions such as Lent by many Protestants. "We do emphasize that our relationship with Christ is through faith alone, and the reformers wanted to avoid the appearance that we gain acceptance with God through rituals or symbols," Lewis said. "Now, people can understand the difference. These symbols come alongside as holy reminders." Robert Hodgson, dean of the Nida Institute for Biblical Scholarship at the American Bible Society in New York City, said many evangelicals are beginning to see the biblical roots of Lent. "Jesus goes into the wilderness for 40 days and disciplines himself with fasting and prayer." The 40 days of Lent are preparation for Easter, when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Easter is April 16 this year for more than a billion Western Christians and April 23 for Eastern Orthodox. Baptists are taking an increased interest in the liturgical season for its theological lessons, Shelton said. "It's important for us to take the opportunity to confess our sin." During many Christian observances of Ash Wednesday, the minister rubs ashes on the foreheads of congregants and says, "You are dust and to dust you shall return," quoting a verse from Genesis. The wearing of ashes is prominent in the New Testament with John the Baptist, who called for repentance and wore sackcloth and ashes. "It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said. "We too will return to ashes," she said. "There's life beyond that, and hope beyond what we experience in this life." E-mail: ggarrison@bhamnews.com © 2006 The Birmingham News © 2006 al.com All Rights Reserved.

[Blogger]

Baptists and Protestants would beg to differ.

[whispering out loud]

lol, 1 Tim 2;11,12

It isn't hard to grasp.

[Nihil Obstat]

No offense maam, but that list is absolutely riddled with errors.

Have you ever heard of the Didache? It's lists practices of the early church. It was probably written around 100 AD. You can read it here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html

You can also read any of the writings from the people of the early church. If you read any un-biased church history , you will see that about half of the things on that list can be proven false very easily.

If you don't trust Catholics you can ask any of the Orthodox and they will tell you the same thing.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

You are the sweetest person in the world, Mrs. Don-o, and of course I would pray with you personally. But I must always say that I have fundamental problems with some Catholic theology. What starts to happen when we organize together is that both of us are weakened, not strengthened. The differences matter. We can love each other and be allies in all the ways that keep us true to our particular beliefs. But the differences matter a great deal. Some of these differences go to the heart of the gospel itself. We need to be careful that we do not weaken our faiths and thereby weaken even the causes we share in common.

But many of my favorite people (including FReepers) are Catholic.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Lutherans believe in Sola Scriptura and have always observed Lent, Ash Wednesday, etc.

It's not so much specificall the Ash Wednesday practice that bothers me, but the general ecumenical idea that we can focus on things we agree on and downplay our theological differences like they aren't that important. I think we need to be very careful about that. Perhaps the intentions are not to weaken each other, but I believe that will be the results. The differences are very fundamental.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, it's not a mega church compared to Mt. Paran Church of God a block away, but the style of the service is more in that vein than traditional Episcopal BCP services. And I wasn't calling it a liberal church by any means (thought I made clear it was a breakaway from ECUSA, not a follower) nor referring to the Biblical aspect, but to the church's abandonment of the Apostolic Succession and the pride of place of the liturgy.

For a High Church Episcopalian thinking about moving to a new church home, those two issues made this church a non-starter. But for folks who AREN't "high" (and believe me we were in a distinct minority in this diocese), it may be perfectly all right.

[annalex]

Baptists and Protestants would beg to differ

Why should I care?

[jer33 3]

Forgive me as I am not certain what it means to be a "High Church Episcopalian." No need to define. My dear fellow Atlanta and sister in Christ, I hope you have a wonderful day.


May our lives (character, conduct, and conservations) be pleasing to our Lord.

[nanetteclaret]

“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” John 17: 1, 11, 20-23 KJV

The Church was one for the first thousand years. Now there are over 30,000 different denominations. Since Jesus specifically prayed five times, in this particular passage, that we all be one, it must have been very important to Him and must grieve His heart terribly that we have used our free will to become so separated and fragmented.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "Your church encourages you to pray to [Mary] and elevates her status to that of a equal of GOD...Whatever caused this misplaced worship doesn't really matter, its wrong."

I can really understand your concern and your rejection of the worship of Mary (or any other creature.) But hasn't anyone ever explained to you that Catholics don't worship Mary? That is, we must never "worship" her in the sense of giving the supreme honor and adoration due to God alone.

We do honor Mary as I'm sure Jesus Himself did --- since He certainly obeyed the commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother." Mary is creature, disciple, servant... also addressed by the Angel Gabriel with what must be even MORE than merely a royal title, "Full of Grace" Gratia Plena. Panagia. There's really nobody else even remotely suited to have the title of "Queen" --- and thus fulfill all that Old Testament typography --- except for Mary most humble. Or who else would you suggest?

You wrote: "Mary was truly blessed and was a noble servant of GOD. She is not a co-redemptress."

Right you are. Let's agree to agree on that!

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I do not see the fragmentation as a bad thing. That's what keeps us challenged to stay true to the teachings of Christ. Too much unity amongst fallible humans tends to lead to all of them following false teachings (in the church) or a deceitful leader (in government). There is one church and she is scattered among many denominations. I think we are facing a time of testing and purification right now. I think there will be a big separation in the church, a reorganization. God is cleaning house. I am not a prophet and I don't speak for God, so that's just based on human observation. But there are some big things happening in churches right now. Big changes. And most are not for the better. A lot of this has to do with weak humans wanting to feel good about themselves and others more than they want to honor and glorify a holy God.

[Blogger]

If you don't care about truth, I guess you shouldn't. It's your soul.

[annalex]

I don't care if a religious community started a few centuries ago by second rate theologians does not like Catholic faith.

[Blogger]

And just how many Bible verses can you quote? Where is your degree in theology in order to evaluate what rating any theologican gets?

[annalex]

Every now and then somebody gives me a link to Luther's or Calvin's commentary on the Bible, and each time I am struck by their inability to understand the verse in context. Here is one example, concerning Calvin's attempt at grasping 1 Timothy 2:2-4:

Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will (2679)

As to Bible-quoting bees, I suggest you amuze yourself with your fellow bibliolators.

[Blogger]

You answered my question as I suspected. No further questions.

[nanetteclaret]

If you believe that Holy Scripture is inerrant and that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then you **must - by definition** believe that the words I quoted from the Gospel of St. John are true and accurate. It says that Jesus prayed to the Father that we all might be one. If these words are taken literally - and I don't know how else they could be taken, because it is very clear - that means He places a high priority on union. Are you going to argue with Jesus by saying fragmentation is not bad, when He has very clearly said - 5 times! - that He desires union?

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Do you think He places a higher priority on unity than on truth?

I love that whole section of John where Jesus is actually praying for us. That is so awesome. But unity does not trump truth, and in no way do I interpret that Scripture to mean that unity trumps truth.

Jesus also said that in the end many will say to Him "Lord, Lord...." and He will say to them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." So clearly He knew that all who claimed Him would not truly know Him, but would rather be deceieved by a false gospel.

I do not believe that all Catholics are going to hell, but I do believe that Catholic theology leads there. To the extent that some Catholics have true faith but are misled or uninformed about specific theological points, I think it is possible for them to be true Christians. But if your faith is in your own effort to get you to heaven, you will come up short. And if your faith is in truth as given to you by a man -- albeit a great man called "Pope" -- then you also might be sadly misled. I say that not to hurt anyone. Most Catholics are wonderful and intelligent people who I am fortunate to know. But truth matters, especially the truth of the gospel.

Conflict, even in the church, can sometimes be a process God uses to teach and to purify us. It is not ideal, but then we are talking about imperfect people; and without the conflict we would likely never be challenged to understand the full counsel of God. Faith is more than a nice feeling.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I appreciate your goodwill in hoping for my salvation. I have had good-hearted people of various denominations say they're praying for me, and I have always valued their efforts: God listens to all of these prayers, no matter what His detractors claim to the contrary.

As St. Thomas More, condemned to death by the the court of King Henry VIII, told his judges: "may we yet hereafter in heaven merrily all meet together to everlasting salvation."

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

And I mean "conflict" in a deep theological sense. Kindness and respect for the right of others to disagree is essential. But the disagreement should lead to separate denominations where everyone can be true to his own conscience before God, not wars within one in an effort to look unified, or even ecumenical gatherings where important differences are pretended to not exist.

We should be friends and allies on moral and freedom issues. That's it. We need to know where to draw lines.