The purpose-driven pastor (Rick Warren calls Christian fundamentalists an enemy)

LAKE FOREST, Calif. - This week, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the President's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.

Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, Calif., is much in demand these days.

The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling The Purpose Driven Life, Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.

With his book - the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation - and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.

Now he wants to use his growing influence - and wealth - for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.

"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his sprawling Orange County church campus.

Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.

"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."

Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.

It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.

At the end of his second sermon last Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."

That, simply put, is his message. Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits "there is not a new idea in that book."

The Purpose Driven Life has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.

The book figured prominently in a hostage drama in Georgia last March. Ashley Smith, held by alleged Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, said he released her after she gave him methamphetamine and read to him from the book.

Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California. He is "a very important figure in evangelical Christianity," part of a "trend we'll see more of," Miller said, citing Warren's independence, social activism, informality and ability to reach across racial and national lines.

"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."

Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more-divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."

Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.

"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries... . He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.

In North Philadelphia, the Rev. Herbert Lusk, the former Philadelphia Eagles running back who is pastor of the Greater Exodus Baptist Church and a prominent supporter of President Bush, brought Warren to town in November to raise money for aid to Africa. Lusk also tutored many of the Eagles' players and coaches in the Purpose-Driven Life program last year.

Lusk said Warren "took the principles that we preach about every Sunday and packaged them in a way that are palatable for Christians and non-Christians."

"The guy is a preacher's preacher... . He's the leading evangelical in the world, unquestionably," Lusk said.

Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants.

Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.

Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.

Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss issues such as poverty and the environment.

"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."

"Politics is always downstream from culture. I place less confidence in it than a lot of folks. I don't think that's the answer... . Politics is not the right tool to change the culture."

With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.

His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.

Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County, as Warren went door-to-door, asking residents what they'd like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.

As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social-service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.

This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda, to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).

Last month, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as strictly a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.

Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems.

"I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."

But, powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.

Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."

there's a difference between the backslider and the Christian who still sins.

The backslider was never saved to begin with - the backslider is the seed that was choked out by the thorns, and the seed that was thrown by the road.

Every saved Christian sins, but our salvation has produced in us a Godly desire to repent and to seek the truth of the word of God. To hunger and thirst for righteousness. Laziness in pursuing the things of God is disobedience - which is why we're commanded to gather together as believers and stir each other up - support one another and carry each other's burdens.

It's true that all Christians grow at different rates, but the desire is always there regardless.

I've seen first-hand the emotional "experience" that whips up the non-believer into a frenzy. And then lets them down.

>>It is our job to bring people to where they can receive the truth.<<

And again you ignore the importance of the MEANS in which you bring them in. Holy means, and with the gospel truth, not worldly means that will not set them apart from the world.

"There's no such thing as a carnal Christian."

Paul seems to disagree in his letters to the church at Rome (romans 17) and to the church at Corinth (1 Cor. 3).

"That the church building is not to be set apart and sanctified as a holy place?"

It is the people who are set apart and sanctified. The building is just that. When we are raptured it will still be here. Some meet in schools, some in shopping centers, some in Masonic Halls some in even meet in KOC buildings. Where two or three are together in His name there is He, even in a bar.

We carry sin though we're saved - I'm not disputing that. My point is that the Christian can't serve two masters. You can't be in love with the world and still serve Christ.

"Carnal Christians" are those who are ok with their sin, and see nothing wrong with immersing themselves in worldliness - sinning presumptuously in the face of Grace.

Romans 17? Have they added a new chapter?

And 1 Cor 3:17 actually proves my point.

That's known as Bait n' Switch where I come from, and it's dishonest.

Yours is simply a faulty analysis, imo.

Making church a more people friendly place and then ensuring that the gospel is shared is no different than Wal-Mart making sure its stores are people friendly places and then ensuring that merchandise is available for purchase.

There is no element of bait and switch at all.

Again, it's the means in which one makes it friendly. If you're using fleshly desires, lights, music and gizmos, then you're presenting a false front in "doing whatever it takes" to get them through the door. You don't "lure" people with friendliness - you lure them with objects and shiny things. I have yet to be in an unfriendly church.

And no one has still answered my earlier question. Is it true or is it untrue that one of the first steps in Warren's PDC model is to survey the unchurched in order to find out what they dont' like about going to church - and then alter your services to reflect that?

If true, how can you look at that as anything other than appealing to the fleshly desires of the unchurched in order to "get them in the door"?

If true, what has now become the focus of church? Bribing the unsaved, or whorshipping the Lord in reverence, awe, and glory?

1) "Come join us - we have loud music and coffee! Heck, wear sweat-pants! It'll be like you're at home, only we might mention God's name a few times."

or

2) "Come join us in humbly praising our Holy and Righteous Creator and confessing our sins"

In Church-Marketing, you're selling a product. In evangelism, you're convicting sin in Spirit and Truth.

That's known as Bait n' Switch where I come from, and it's dishonest.

So it is bait and switch if you offer a warm smile and a cup of joe to visitors to your church? It's bait and switch if you offer a nice friendly environment where a vistor can feel welcome?

That's pretty sad. I guess some Churches are unwelcoming and dour. I suspect dour people love to be in that environment. It's no wonder they leave when their churches become welcoming and friendly. When their dour experience fades, then they have to go elsewhere to relive the experience.

I am sure that you already know this. Bait and switch means that you are lured (compelled) to come to a store for an item - usually a cheap one - and they don't have that item, so they try to sell you a more expensive one. This is done because it is not likely you would have purchased the more expensive, higher quality one to begin with.

I think the reason that ItsOurTimeNow used the analogy is this. The seeker churches that promote a feel good, "friendly" environment are truly baiting and switching if they are preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus, because the gospel is offensive to those who are not saved. The gospel, the power unto salvation is not pleasant - it exposes our sin and our flesh so that we may turn from our own ways and desires and put our trust in God, loving Him above our own self. The first step as we all will acknowledge is that we must see our ugly horrid sin and admit that we are not able to deliver/save ourselves in order to truly repent. And anyone who truly knows that Lord knows that is not pleasant. And that it just isn't a friendly, atmosphere, feel-goody experience. (But the peace that passes all understanding when then we stand in His grace because of His forgivenes is better than any earthly comfort and desire!) So to invite someone in where they think they will have a warm, fuzzy, comfortable experience and then they are confronted with their sinful nature is a bait and switch. The cheap low quality lure to proposing the most highly paid, perfect quality.

On the other hand, if they are not really preaching the gospel, but the watered down, God is good, God love you truncated version of the gospel then it really isn't a bait and switch. But it is much worse.

If true, how can you look at that as anything other than appealing to the fleshly desires of the unchurched in order to "get them in the door"?

Jesus offered a free lunch to 5000 people and when it was all over he preached a sermon.

A lot of these churches you denigrate offer some smiles, some coffee, and perhaps some food and then they preach a sermon.

What does your church offer to visitors? Do they get a smile, a hug, a cup of joe, a meal? Or do they get a look of suspicion, a cold shoulder and a hearty good bye?

Marlowe, you yourself called it an "experience" to be promised (meaning the focus is on the person and not Christ), and said there is no harm in amusing the goats.

And again, I said there's nothing wrong in being friendly. That's not in the debate. What we're debating are the worldly means with which people are being "lured" into the church. Music, games, commerce, "you're ok - I'm ok", etc.

Please feel free to re-read my post yesterday on this subject (right after your cornfield comments).

I'm not in the habit of debating in circles, and really there's nothing more I can say on the topic, unless you care to answer the direct question I've asked you 3 times now.

Oh, and am I correct in assuming the "children" points are settled now, or is that still open? You didn't respond to my post regarding that.

There is no bait and switch. We are SUPPOSED to be a place where the love of God is shed abroad. (Beloved, let us love one another.)

A church is to practice the love of Christ and to preach the gospel of Christ.

What is bait and switch would be anyplace where they proclaim themselves Christian, and a person arrives who is NOT greeted, who is NOT made to feel welcome, who is NOT introduced to the gospel in every conceivable manner at the church's disposition.

As Marlowe says, there are some pretty "dour" places out there.....grim people, grim relating, grim outlook, grim proclamation, and grim grimmaces.

>>Jesus offered a free lunch to 5000 people and when it was all over he preached a sermon.<<

Another bad example. They had been with him all day and they were hungry. The miracle was a sign to show his authority and compassion. We, therefore, are called to be just as compassionate in helping the needy.

Feeding a hungry person lunch doesn't compare to bribing them with rock music and fooseball tables just to get them to come. I'm really surprised you can't see this very obvious difference.

By appealing to worldly desires, you're making the church "experience" conditional based on the churches 'features', not on the Word of God.

>>What does your church offer to visitors? Do they get a smile, a hug, a cup of joe, a meal? Or do they get a look of suspicion, a cold shoulder and a hearty good bye?<<

We've been over this - and your line of questioning is downright silly.

Music, games, commerce, "you're ok - I'm ok", etc.

I see nothing wrong with a church having musical programs.

I see nothing wrong with a church having places for people to buy anything from books to coffee.

I see nothing wrong with a church preaching a message "How to get OK with God." (Beyond that 'transactional analysis' is an early version of counseling which today might be grouped in the narrative field; the point of which is to get people to reframe their own self-story. This is necessary with many people inclined toward defeatism and depression because they are so hard on themselves they built a story about their lives that ignores positive things that also have happened to them.)

I see nothing wrong with a Christian therapist using any appropriate understanding gleaned from the narrative schools of indiv and family therapy.

Oh, and am I correct in assuming the "children" points are settled now, or is that still open? You didn't respond to my post regarding that.

Jesus was talking about attitude. The person who wrote that so-called "childish" song undoubtedly wrote it from their heart. You seem to be too mature in the faith to appreciate it, but the person who wrote it obviously had the heart and the attitude of a child.

For all we know the person who wrote it could not think above that level. Is the heartfelt song of a retarted person less valuable or important or worthy of respect than the heartfelt song of a memeber of the intelligensia? Must everything be on your spiritual level to be considered reverent?

Conditional worship. Once you establish a Worship Experience Based on Comfort, that becomes the condition for future worship.

There's nothing wrong in wearing jeans or sweats to church, if it's the best that you have ("Give of your best to the master"). The point is, if someone is saying "UNLESS I can wear sweatpants, I won't go.", then the problem is their motives. That's the attitude of conditional worship that the seeker-sensitive folks perpetuate because they're winning people to fleshly comforts.

Unless the church has a fooseball table and daycare, I won't go.

Unless the church has jump-in-the-aisle music, I won't go.

If I can't drink a coke during the service, I won't go.

Please re-read my post #270 for further reference.

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The purpose-driven pastor

By Paul Nussbaum

Inquirer Staff Writer