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To: ItsOurTimeNow; P-Marlowe
That's known as Bait n' Switch where I come from, and it's dishonest.

Yours is simply a faulty analysis, imo.

Making church a more people friendly place and then ensuring that the gospel is shared is no different than Wal-Mart making sure its stores are people friendly places and then ensuring that merchandise is available for purchase.

There is no element of bait and switch at all.

425 posted on 01/12/2006 7:53:33 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe

Again, it's the means in which one makes it friendly. If you're using fleshly desires, lights, music and gizmos, then you're presenting a false front in "doing whatever it takes" to get them through the door. You don't "lure" people with friendliness - you lure them with objects and shiny things. I have yet to be in an unfriendly church.

And no one has still answered my earlier question. Is it true or is it untrue that one of the first steps in Warren's PDC model is to survey the unchurched in order to find out what they dont' like about going to church - and then alter your services to reflect that?

If true, how can you look at that as anything other than appealing to the fleshly desires of the unchurched in order to "get them in the door"?

If true, what has now become the focus of church? Bribing the unsaved, or whorshipping the Lord in reverence, awe, and glory?

1) "Come join us - we have loud music and coffee! Heck, wear sweat-pants! It'll be like you're at home, only we might mention God's name a few times."

or

2) "Come join us in humbly praising our Holy and Righteous Creator and confessing our sins"

In Church-Marketing, you're selling a product. In evangelism, you're convicting sin in Spirit and Truth.


427 posted on 01/12/2006 8:07:17 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Hail Him who saved you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of All")
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To: xzins; ItsOurTimeNow
Making church a more people friendly place and then ensuring that the gospel is shared is no different than Wal-Mart making sure its stores are people friendly places and then ensuring that merchandise is available for purchase. There is no element of bait and switch at all.

I am sure that you already know this. Bait and switch means that you are lured (compelled) to come to a store for an item - usually a cheap one - and they don't have that item, so they try to sell you a more expensive one. This is done because it is not likely you would have purchased the more expensive, higher quality one to begin with.

I think the reason that ItsOurTimeNow used the analogy is this. The seeker churches that promote a feel good, "friendly" environment are truly baiting and switching if they are preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus, because the gospel is offensive to those who are not saved. The gospel, the power unto salvation is not pleasant - it exposes our sin and our flesh so that we may turn from our own ways and desires and put our trust in God, loving Him above our own self. The first step as we all will acknowledge is that we must see our ugly horrid sin and admit that we are not able to deliver/save ourselves in order to truly repent. And anyone who truly knows that Lord knows that is not pleasant. And that it just isn't a friendly, atmosphere, feel-goody experience. (But the peace that passes all understanding when then we stand in His grace because of His forgivenes is better than any earthly comfort and desire!) So to invite someone in where they think they will have a warm, fuzzy, comfortable experience and then they are confronted with their sinful nature is a bait and switch. The cheap low quality lure to proposing the most highly paid, perfect quality.

On the other hand, if they are not really preaching the gospel, but the watered down, God is good, God love you truncated version of the gospel then it really isn't a bait and switch. But it is much worse.

430 posted on 01/12/2006 8:17:52 AM PST by lupie
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