Posted on 11/30/2005 6:41:45 PM PST by NYer
Refers to St. Augustine's Commentary on Psalm 136(137)
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.
The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).
On a rainy morning in Rome, the Holy Father's meditation, addressed to more than 23,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square, concentrated on the suffering of the Jewish people in the Babylonian exile, expressed dramatically in Psalm 136(137).
The Pontiff referred to Augustine's commentary on this composition of the Jewish people, noting that this "Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness."
Augustine "knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire," Benedict XVI stated.
"They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption," explained the Pope, quoting Augustine.
This spark
"And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live," the Holy Father continued.
"With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ," he clarified.
Continuing with his quotes from Augustine, the Pope added that "God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance."
The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord "that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world."
Your post was a very even-handed and considerate approach to this thorny issue, and I appreciate it. We may all learn well from your tone. Thank you!
I have read far too many statements from non-Catholic Christians who are absolutely certain that Catholics absolutely cannot go to heaven. Thankfully, you are an exception to that.
"Therefore, I view protestantism like a super-order (franciscans, benedictines) that is called to freedom; or like a floating patriarchy that is called to freedom....all for the purpose of being a repair resource when systemic abuses happen (even amongst themselves.)"
But this freedom, unfortunately, has led to such divergent opinions and statements on doctrinal matters as to make the concept of unity completely unrecognized in modern Christianity.
"The unity is based on "love one another as I have loved you." When they see our love for one another, then the world will know that Jesus actually was sent from God."
Sounds good, and I believed that for a very long time, and would honestly like to continue to believe that. But we are not recognized for our love for one another, because it does not substantially exist. The unity seems to require agreement on doctrine.
It's important to prostelytize. That does not detract from the concept of invincible ignorance. After all, has everyone from every nation "heard the Word"? I suppose one can say "yes", but even if they have "heard", has it been explained effectively to them? That's the point. To simply go up to someone, say, "You should believe in Jesus" is not an effective witness. Someone must KNOWINGLY reject Christ to be under obligation to accept Him. That's the point.
This does not negate John 6:44-45 and Matt 28:19-20 though. After all, as I said in my original post, there's only ONE faith that "saves". To "hope" that one, or others, may be saved through invincible ignorance isn't a very good way to live. To truly be on the right path, one must be in agreement with the true saving faith. So, to truly help our brothers and sisters, we must spread the Gospel yes, but if we're limited by our own physical limitations ( and indeed we are, since we can't be everywhere, at once, spreading the Gospel AND effectively teaching it) then why should the others be bound by it? Again, it's not very Christ like to demand that, at once, all who aren't Christian are damned to Hell, by no fault of their own.
" According to Paul, these men of Athens were already worshipping God to the best of their understanding.."
But look...
"As I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. "
This was merely their "catch-all" god - in case they missed one. Paul was using it as a retorical spring-board. I doubt he is giving the thumbs up to Athens' pantheim.
"Not to be provocative, but where's the "unity" between you and a pedasterist priest? You many be unified in your outward submission to a bishop in Rome, but it is an outward and superficial unity. This is not the unity Christ prayed for."
Not to be provocative? Really? You truly believe that there's acceptance within the teachings of Catholicism for those who would abuse children?
What, indeed, is the unity for which Christ prayed? It has to be more than love, because we Christians, even after the Reformation, have done a horrid job of loving each other, let alone our fellow man.
"Not to be provocative, but where's the "unity" between you and a pedasterist priest?"
I should also add that the 'pedasterist' priest has broken that unity by his sinful actions. So no, there is no unity between me and such a person until he reconciles himself to the Church.
"Not to be provocative? Really? You truly believe that there's acceptance within the teachings of Catholicism for those who would abuse children?"
Of course not. But you do have an outward "unity" because you are members of the same physical organization - do you not?
What your getting at is that the two of you have no true unity of heart and spirit - and that's my very point! Christ's unity is spiritual. It is a unity of the heart between those who truly love him. It is the unity of the wheat among the tares!
"I am the Light of the World."
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."
There are so MANY "I am" statements _-- and surely you know what "I am" is all about. It's about His very identity. It's about His name. All these names are His names... and "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
How much God loves us! Let me count the ways!
Well, go to your Bible concordance and get busy. Remember: searchable keywords: "I am."
"God can still intervene in someone,s life at anytime,"
But when He does intervene, it is always with the truth of the Gospel, my friend.
"...no man cometh to the Father, but by me."
More people need to follow the example of the Bereans (Acts 17:11), who searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether what they were being told was so.
Galatians 1:8-12
Again, if works is in the least efficacious, then the work done by Christ on the cross is pointless.
With respect to Col 1:24, understand one thing: that is one long sentance and runs all the way to v29. Paul is talking about the Church (the mystery), and the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, and evident in Paul's ministry to the Gentiles (whom he was almost exclusively preaching to, they being accounted righteous and made perfect in Jesus Christ).
Romans 4:13-16, 3-5 makes that quite clear that works amounts to nothing whatsoever with respect to righteousness. Even better yet, why was Lot saved? And what about Noah? Scripture intimated that Lot was a most heinous dude, and in the days of Noah no man was seen as being righteous. Without righteousness there can be no salvation. And yet something was counted as righteousness. What was that? In Jn 3:14 Jesus tells some big Jewish honcho something interesting. He makes reference to something that happened in days gone by. What was it that happened there? They were told to Look! in Deuteronomy. They weren't told to do anything. And so, as it was with the serpent, so it was to be with Christ. Just look.
And yes, James says, there should be evidence of one's faith. That's because Christians should strive to become more Christlike. Some don't though. Doest that mean that those whom we'd never perceive as having Christ in them are not saved? That's only for God to know, since he's the searcher of the hearts of men. Only He knows for sure whether or not the confession made by the mouth is truly in one's heart.
Yes, of course we have visible unity, but we don't have unity of belief. The person who chooses to reject the teachings of the Church (which is what abusive priests have done) have broken the unity themselves.
I'm saying that it isn't either/or. It isn't either visible unity, or unity of love (or, as you beautifully stated, unity of heart and spirit). And it isn't just doctrinal unity.
The person who makes choices that cause him to break away from this unity does not make a mockery of the unity, but rather, places himself outside of it.
Please explain how such unity of heart and spirit exists without unity of belief/agreement on truth (Protestantism).
Well, I guess that settles that. After all, we should all just subject ourselves to his authority and not try to interpret Scripture for ourselves.
That's true. The error is that some chose to teach people that "the true church" is the ROMAN CC.
The universal (small "c" catholic) church is invisible, because the ekklesia of God are only those in whom the Holy Spirit resides. Only God knows those who are his.
No one but God, himself, knows the difference between the sheep and the goats - the wheat and the chaff. Those who think they can tell the difference - are judging by outward appearances - looking at what people say and what people do - and are making a big mistake.
There were a lot of shocked people standing around when Christ told one of the thieves on the cross that he was among those who were predestined (before the foundation of the world) to be counted among the elect.
I may have my history incorrect, but James was only hotly debated after the Reformation. Forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong.
If works should be visible in that one has faith, then are those works self-willed? I've heard the explanation from Protestants that good works naturally flow out of the faith of true believers. On that point, we're in agreement. But, one has to will those works, or otherwise those works are not borne out of love, and the faith is mere intellectual assent and the following of dead rules.
If works are not efficacious, or as I would put it, contributory, toward salvation, then why do them?
We also agree that works are evidence of sanctification. But, why the need for sanctification if works are not efficacious? I mean, you're already saved, so you don't need to grow in holiness, right?
It is my understanding of tradition that the Apostle Thomas took the message of Christ into Parthia and then to India where he was martyred. At that time, both Hinduism and Buddhism already existed.
If these people can be saved by their own religions, then why did Thomas feel the need to tell them about Christ?
And if presenting them with Christ brings condemnation on those who reject Jesus, then wouldn't we be better off NOT taking the gospel to other religions?
Nonetheless, Paul & Peter (and others) spent their lives attempting to turn people from the religions of their day to Jesus.
What do you think was so important about Christianity that caused these apostles to ignore these concerns and continue telling others about Jesus?
"The universal (small "c" catholic) church is invisible, because the ekklesia of God are only those in whom the Holy Spirit resides. Only God knows those who are his."
How can the world see an invisible unity? John 17 says that the end of this unity is that the world may believe. How can it believe in what it cannot see?
The other man who said "remember me" to the Lord was Samson. The Lord empowered him at that point, too. Samson's life was predicted to his parents; even his deviant desire for Philistine women was said to be from God in order to confront the enemies of God's people.
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